Filing flight plans France to UK
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Frankly I don't understand the problem. If you can file a flight plan from the UK to France, why can't you file the return leg with the same internet application or over the same phone or fax machine with the ATC authority that you filed the original one ???
If there is a delay, or a change of plan, you just phone the responsible ATC authority. That can be the "BRIA" for the French region from which you depart, but I can also be the original UK ATC authority (who is just as interested in this delay).
OLIVIA is an internet application. Getting access is a doddle, and you just need internet access, not a computer at the airport. So you can file from your mobile phone (blackberry style) anywhere there is a gsm mast within reach, or from your hotel or from an internet café. The confirmation message will contain the BRIA you need to call for updates, questions or whatever.
Off-topic:
Eurocontrol recently implemented some large cuts that hit IT particularly hard. So your friend most likely left because they told him so.
He might be right about the total shambles, though, with many key resources wasted because of boneheaded management and stupid political games. Not as bad as EASA, though.
If there is a delay, or a change of plan, you just phone the responsible ATC authority. That can be the "BRIA" for the French region from which you depart, but I can also be the original UK ATC authority (who is just as interested in this delay).
OLIVIA is an internet application. Getting access is a doddle, and you just need internet access, not a computer at the airport. So you can file from your mobile phone (blackberry style) anywhere there is a gsm mast within reach, or from your hotel or from an internet café. The confirmation message will contain the BRIA you need to call for updates, questions or whatever.
Off-topic:
He recently left Euro-control saying they were a total shambles.
He might be right about the total shambles, though, with many key resources wasted because of boneheaded management and stupid political games. Not as bad as EASA, though.
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Frankly I don't understand the problem. If you can file a flight plan from the UK to France, why can't you file the return leg with the same internet application or over the same phone or fax machine with the ATC authority that you filed the original one ???
So he is quite rightly trying to find out how others do things rather than waste lots of time on the ground in France trying to figure it out.
dp
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Most likely because he simply handed a paper flight plan to someone at his departure airport, and doesn't know if that will be excepted at his destination for a return flight.
...will they accept it from him given that it's not his departure airport for the return leg.
2) With cost efficiencies being implemented across the board (abolishing MET offices at regional airports and increasing charges to offset unavoidable costs), I'm amazed at the fact that a UK airport would still employ "someone who handles paper flight plans".
I'm not criticizing the thread initiator for trying to find out how to avoid wasting time on the ground in France. That is of course commendable.
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There is another angle on this:
Assuming this is VFR we are talking about, and let's say you are doing an overnight stay somewhere.
If you file the return FP on the day of departure (using whatever method) then the return flight plan needs to have a DOF/ on it, for the correct date.
Now, how is DOF/ implemented on VFR flight plans?
Errrmmmm, it isn't...
The flight plan is delivered immediately to all the addressed stations, and it is their responsibility to hang onto it and fish it out on the specified DOF.
This is done using the proverbial nail in the wall, onto which you stick flight plans which are forward-dated, and somebody has the job of checking the nail each morning.
The experience of myself and many others is that this is a crap process which often results in the loss of the flight plan.
Not a problem at LTQ because half the people flying to LTQ have probably forgotten to file a FP and the other half probably forgot to bring their passport
But it is a good reason to have a more robust procedure for this sort of thing.
IIRC, only Homebriefing solves this, by hanging onto the FP until the date on it and transmitting it to the addressees only on the morning of that date (or a few hours before, or something like that). That makes the DOF/ irrelevant.
AFPEX does not help in this case because it is a direct interface into the AFTN so the FP gets transmitted immediately. I don't know if EuroFPL or Rocketroute do anything in this area.
IFR flight plans have a DOF implemented in the Eurocontrol computer so it all "just works" - up to 5 days ahead. You can get some hilarious scenarios where an IFR routing worked when you filed the FP but would not be accepted (due to airway rule changes etc) had the FP been filed nearer the DOF Due to pure luck, I was able to get out of LTBH in Turkey while most others (it was a fly-in) were slightly stuffed... One pilot complained that the only accepted routing - a nice "tour of the Aegean" - would cause him to run out of fuel; the Turkish ATCO just shrugged and smiled.
Assuming this is VFR we are talking about, and let's say you are doing an overnight stay somewhere.
If you file the return FP on the day of departure (using whatever method) then the return flight plan needs to have a DOF/ on it, for the correct date.
Now, how is DOF/ implemented on VFR flight plans?
Errrmmmm, it isn't...
The flight plan is delivered immediately to all the addressed stations, and it is their responsibility to hang onto it and fish it out on the specified DOF.
This is done using the proverbial nail in the wall, onto which you stick flight plans which are forward-dated, and somebody has the job of checking the nail each morning.
The experience of myself and many others is that this is a crap process which often results in the loss of the flight plan.
Not a problem at LTQ because half the people flying to LTQ have probably forgotten to file a FP and the other half probably forgot to bring their passport
But it is a good reason to have a more robust procedure for this sort of thing.
IIRC, only Homebriefing solves this, by hanging onto the FP until the date on it and transmitting it to the addressees only on the morning of that date (or a few hours before, or something like that). That makes the DOF/ irrelevant.
AFPEX does not help in this case because it is a direct interface into the AFTN so the FP gets transmitted immediately. I don't know if EuroFPL or Rocketroute do anything in this area.
IFR flight plans have a DOF implemented in the Eurocontrol computer so it all "just works" - up to 5 days ahead. You can get some hilarious scenarios where an IFR routing worked when you filed the FP but would not be accepted (due to airway rule changes etc) had the FP been filed nearer the DOF
Due to pure luck, I was able to get out of LTBH in Turkey while most others (it was a fly-in) were slightly stuffed... One pilot complained that the only accepted routing - a nice "tour of the Aegean" - would cause him to run out of fuel; the Turkish ATCO just shrugged and smiled.
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IIRC, only Homebriefing solves this, by hanging onto the FP until the date on it and transmitting it to the addressees only on the morning of that date (or a few hours before, or something like that). That makes the DOF/ irrelevant.
Ok perhaps if the departure airport is a large one but no good if you are departing from a rural strip.
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Why can't that "someone" then handle the return flight plan as well ?
Why should the flight plan be filed with the departure airport ? Surely UK briefers talk to French briefers ? (And vice versa : both legs could be filed through OLIVIA, no need to see your UK airport chap).
...will they accept it from him given that it's not his departure airport for the return leg.
So many airports helpfully put the flight plan into the system via their Afpex account on behalf of the pilot. However they might not be so happy to do that for the pilot for the return flight. They might be happy to, but they might not. They are less likely to be happy to do it, if the return flight has an intermediate stop, meaning that the flight plan isn't one that involves a landing at their airport.
Of course the pilot should learn to use the Afpex system themselves, but even if they had, this still leaves the question of do they have access to an open computer at the airport at the far end.
Even saying "use Olivia" which is a very good system, still leaves the original poster with the question "Is there access to a computer than I can file a flight plan on Olivia with at the far end".
I think the question is reasonable.
As the pilot gets more experience they will either come to the realisation that most reasonable sized airports have some means of filing flight plans and getting weather briefings for visiting pilots. They will also come to the realisation that having your own means of accessing the internet and filing this stuff online is the least troublesome method in the longer term.
dp
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Rather than indulge in the usual 'I can *iss higher up the wall than you' pprune practice.
From memory transiting LFAT last year, there is a pilot briefing room on the left - on the way out of the terminal to the apron - just before the rack of hire bicycles. In it is a PC with internet access - so notams, weather and Olivia.
Additionally the terminal staff are very helpful and most have more than enough English and aeronautical expertise to help you in the event you need it.
Enjoy your trip!
From memory transiting LFAT last year, there is a pilot briefing room on the left - on the way out of the terminal to the apron - just before the rack of hire bicycles. In it is a PC with internet access - so notams, weather and Olivia.
Additionally the terminal staff are very helpful and most have more than enough English and aeronautical expertise to help you in the event you need it.
Enjoy your trip!
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I have been told that Homebriefing only sends VFR flight plans to the departure airport and relies on them to do the job properly.
As the pilot gets more experience they will either come to the realisation that most reasonable sized airports have some means of filing flight plans and getting weather briefings for visiting pilots. They will also come to the realisation that having your own means of accessing the internet and filing this stuff online is the least troublesome method in the longer term.
Rather than indulge in the usual 'I can *iss higher up the wall than you' pprune practice.
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once you move beyond UK/France filing VFR plans seems to be a nightmare. from the UK the departure airport just looks at the plan tand doesn't do any further processing so you need to address it to all other interested parties. whereas if you file a VFR plan for departure from Spain addressed to anyone else, they will have the hump as it is their job to processes it to everyone else.
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There is good advice here about handing in written FPL forms, but a point not made is that in some places it can take an hour to clear. Remember to hand in the FPL after arrival, not when you are ready to walk back to the plane!
I've personally resorted to handed in FPL's in a number of Baltic type places recently simply because it's such a faff to dig out the laptop, get an internet connection, stagger through AFPEX's login and possible download slam, and so on. All this would be different if AFPEX worked on iPad, of course, but it ... doesn't.
I've personally resorted to handed in FPL's in a number of Baltic type places recently simply because it's such a faff to dig out the laptop, get an internet connection, stagger through AFPEX's login and possible download slam, and so on. All this would be different if AFPEX worked on iPad, of course, but it ... doesn't.
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I file my flightplans from SkyDemon at the same time as I check the TAFS and METARS for the return trip, but as has already been pointed out by a few posters, at Le2K you can just hand a paper plan to the airport reception staff as you are booking in and they'll file it for you.
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I've personally resorted to handed in FPL's in a number of Baltic type places recently simply because it's such a faff to dig out the laptop, get an internet connection, stagger through AFPEX's login and possible download slam, and so on. All this would be different if AFPEX worked on iPad, of course, but it ... doesn't.
IME, a common procedure is to plan a flight the day before (or earlier), make a provisional go/no-go decision the night before, file the flight plan then, and make the final go/no-go decision on the morning of the flight (some of the best data is not available the day before). One needs internet for all of that, generally.
One can run Afpex on the Church of Jobs gadgets but only via a remote desktop solution like Citrix. The client end appears easy enough but setting up the server is not something you want to do at home
But there is no point. I use EuroFPL, with Afpex as a backup, but haven't had to use Afpex for more than a year.
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Hi All,
Very many thanks for all of the feedback and good to know the paper form at LFAT is still an option! We will be landing back at a non ATSU designated airport in the UK for the return flight, do you know how we close the flight plan that we filed in France?
Thanks....
Very many thanks for all of the feedback and good to know the paper form at LFAT is still an option! We will be landing back at a non ATSU designated airport in the UK for the return flight, do you know how we close the flight plan that we filed in France?
Thanks....
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