PPL Application in the post question...

[blackjack240]

Apologies if there is already another thread in the past on this but I could not find it!

My situation is: JAR PPL recently done - Logbook, documents and a pile of money with the CAA.

My question is: If I fly this weekend, i.e. qualified but without my PPL in hand, I understand that I need to either be solo (no passengers) and signed out by an instructor or have an instructor fly with me (if I want to take passengers). Assuming the latter and as this is no longer a lesson/exercise (I am expecting to pay the dual time rate) can I log this as PIC time provided the instructor does not have to take control of the aircraft for safety reasons?

Thanks in advance for your kindness to a noob posting. As I have learned, it's all about PIC time!

[Genghis the Engineer]

You'll be P/UT because only the instructor has a licence that permits carriage of passengers.

Might be worth checking if you can just drive to Gatwick and get your licence issued on the spot, which would solve the whole problem.

G

[blackjack240]

Thank you.

[ChriSat]

Hi there,
Sorry to hijack- but out of interest, when did you send your application to the CAA?
I sent mine off last week and its been signed for by them- but they still haven't debited my account bank account.... which leads me to think they haven't even opened the package yet
Reading some of the previous posts on here, if you give them a ring sometimes it can be a prod to speed up the application if its been standing with them for a while?
Happy Flying

[thing]

I don't think you can get an initial license issue on the spot at Gatwick, in fact I'm sure you can't. Mine took 16 days from posting to receiving it back. I did a couple of trips with my instructor in that time and have them logged as P1/S. Solo is P1 obviously.

[ChriSat]

I don't think you can get an initial license issue on the spot at Gatwick, in fact I'm sure you can't. Mine took 16 days from posting to receiving it back. I did a couple of trips with my instructor in that time and have them logged as P1/S. Solo is P1 obviously.

Yeah, that is right. I think it used to be possible, once upon a time, but to justify the increases in fee's for licence issuance, it must now apparently take longer to process?

Public Counter Service Details | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation

[bingofuel]

If I fly this weekend, i.e. qualified but without my PPL in hand

Sorry to tell you but until the guys at Gatwick issue you with a PPL you are not yet qualified, and are still a student pilot.

If you want to fly this weekend and log P1 time, then fly solo authorised by your instructor.
If you took passengers, then the instructor is P1 and you are Pu/t whether he touches the controls or not, because he does hold a licence that allows him to carry passengers, and as such I would think he would expect paid for his time.

Anyway, congratulations on passing your skill test and hopefully your PPL will be issued soon

[BillieBob]

I did a couple of trips with my instructor in that time and have them logged as P1/S

Then you have logged them incorrectly. P1/s (PICUS) may be claimed only for successful Skill Tests and Proficiency Checks. As has been said elsewhere, if you do not hold a licence then any flight with an instructor should be logged as PUT. [LASORS Section A, Appendix B refers]

[Pull what]

This sort of questions comes up time and time again on here. You can log anything you like in a log book-you can log time drinking coffee in Starbucks if you want to. What you cannot do is COUNT that sort of time towards the grant or renewal of a licence or rating.

The correct log book entry is P1CUS or P1U/S not P1s. Anyone using P1s has never read LASORS, there has never been such a logbook entry from when P1U/S was introduced

[thing]

I shall take great joy in informing my instructor then who works for the CAA...

[Whopity]

Anyone using P1s has never read LASORS

P1S has been used since long before LASORS was invented. LASORS is only a "guidance" document that has no formal status whatsoever. "P1S" has been an abbreviation for "PIC U/S" for many years, and as you said yourself:

You can log anything you like in a log book

The only legal requirements for logging are those in Art 79.

[BillieBob]

I shall take great joy in informing my instructor then who works for the CAA...

As has been demonstrated repeatedly, working for the CAA is no guarantee of an understanding of the rules.

You might like to refer your instructor to the CAA's own guidance on the subject. According to the 'Guide to Logbook Annotations', in LASORS Part A, Appendix B, the only times that PICUS (a.k.a. P1/s) may be claimed are when "Co-pilot performing the duties of PIC under supervision of pilot-in-command" (Case B) and "Pilot undergoing any form of flight test with a JAA or CAA Authorised Examiner" (Case J). Case B is limited to occasions when "the flight was conducted in an aircraft having a Certificate of Airworthiness that requires its flight crews to include not less than two pilots" and so is not relevant.

[Curtis E Carr]

From ANO 2009 Art 52 (my bold type):

(1) A person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot's licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating in a pilot's licence within the United Kingdom, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, without being the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order, if the conditions in paragraph (2) are satisfied.

(2) The conditions referred to in paragraph (1) are that:

(a) the person is at least 16 years of age;

(b) the person is the holder of a valid medical certificate to the effect that the person is fit to act as pilot in command, issued by a person approved by the CAA;

(c) the person complies with any conditions subject to which that medical certificate was issued;

(d) no other person is carried in the aircraft;

(e) the aircraft is not flying for the purpose of commercial air transport, public transport or aerial work other than aerial work which consists of the giving of instruction in flying or the conducting of flying tests; and

(f) the person acts in accordance with instructions given by another person holding a pilot's licence granted under this Order or a JAA licence, in each case being a licence which includes a flight instructor rating, a flying instructor's rating or an assistant flying instructor's rating entitling that other person to give instruction in flying the type of aircraft being flown.

Is flying solo whilst acting in accordance with instructions issued by an instructor (because you're waiting for the Belgrano to issue your licence) doing so for "..the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot's licence ..."?

[CruiseAttitude]

Is flying solo whilst acting in accordance with instructions issued by an instructor (because you're waiting for the Belgrano to issue your licence) doing so for "..the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant or renewal of a pilot's licence ..."?

That's a good question considering that instructor authorised solo flight after the PPL skills test (before receiving the licence) is quite common practice.

It is surprising how many people get confused with how to log time. I've been told by more than one instructor to log P1/S after a revision lesson or club checkout, however, I know this is incorrect.

For SEP opps under current rules...

P1 - Any solo flight (with or without passengers).
P/UT - Any instructional flight (the instructor will log P1)
P1/S - a passed skills test (I have time logged as this for my PPL skills test and my IMC skills test.

[pitofrost]

If it makes you feel better I have just got my new licence back inside two weeks.

Mind you for the cost, I was expecting it to come hand written on vellum, not be a load of cheap laser prints...

[thing]

Don't gloat too much - as a qualified pilot - you yourself should be well aware of the regs and not just push it back onto your (ex) Instructor.

But I pay him to do the reading for me, good Lord you don't have a dog and wag your own tail.

[Pull what]

P1S has been used since long before LASORS was invented. LASORS is only a "guidance" document that has no formal status whatsoever. "P1S" has been an abbreviation for "PIC U/S" for many years, and as you said yourself:

P1S isnt an abbreviation it's an incorrect entry. Before LASORS P1S has only even been used incorrectly by pilots who never read the original AIC which described the required entry as P1 u/s. The mistake was made by a well known publisher of log books who published the incorrect P1s in the front of the log book.The CAA have never ever used P1s in any document. Yes you can put anything in your logbook but as an instructor you should know what entries are required for the grant or renewal of a licence or rating.