Going for the PPL at 70?

[BackPacker]

My question is, can someone of 70 ever be a truly 'natural' pilot? Will they be able to develop the motor skills so that controlling the aeroplane accurately becomes second nature, not something that needs to be thought about?

Does that really matter?

No, I don't think a 70-year old will be able to develop the motor skills that we generally see in fighter pilots. But I don't think it's going to be necessary. At that age, I can imagine that learning to fly is something someone wants to do before he dies. Or something along those lines. If that means learning to fly, and eventually fly, in benign conditions, in a docile aircraft with plenty time to think about your actions, why not?

At that age, I don't think somebody would be continuing on with fighter training, aerobatics, instrument ratings, tailwheel, commercial flying and so forth anyway.

(Edited: WTF is wrong with PPRuNe today that it puts my answer as #1, with the question as #2???)

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

A friend of a friend (I don't know him myself) is, I'm told, starting PPL training. He is 70 years old. I was in my late 20s when I started and I did it in a year, soloing in 10.5 hours, but compared to the 18 year olds who were learning alongside me I thought I'd left it a bit late. Human motor skills are best developed at the earliest age possible, but I did OK and now in my early 60s still enjoy aeros and bimbling in our Chippy.

My question is, can someone of 70 ever be a truly 'natural' pilot? Will they be able to develop the motor skills so that controlling the aeroplane accurately becomes second nature, not something that needs to be thought about?

I'm not an instructor, and I wondoer if those on here who are have had students of this age (or perhaps even older). Did they make it OK? Did they assimilate the required motor skills?

Just curious (as I say, I don't know this guy, am unlikely to meet him, so will not be trying to influence him one way or the other).

[Say again s l o w l y]

I've had a couple of students who make this chap seem like a spring chicken. They got through just fine.

Obviously they took a bit longer than the average 18 year old hot shot, but there was no difference between older students and one's in their 40's or 50's.

However, like most things, I suppose it all comes down to the individual.

Flying an aeroplane doesn't take that much skill. As long as you aren't a complete imbecile, then I've never had an issue with teaching people to fly properly. Co-ordination is rarely that much of an issue, it's between the ears that matters really.

[IO540]

Pprune does sometimes date/time-stamp posts 10 minutes earlier than they were posted. The only solution is for you to wait more than 10 mins after the post(s) you are replying to.

[Johnm]

I started flying at 52 did my IR at 62 and at 64 fly IFR and VFR all over the place. Charles Strasser flies his Seneca and is over 80.

It might take the guy a wee bit longer to get a PPL than a 20 year old, but he probably doesn't care!

What's a natural pilot anyway???

[avonflyer]

when talking of the older pilot use of the word wee should probably be avoided..

[Crash one]

I started PPL training at the tender age of 66 in June 2006. Passed in 64hrs the following August.
I now have a tailwheel a/c non transponderised, no radio nav etc, on a grass strip.
I am as happy as a pig in ****e.
I have seen "young whipper snappers" demonstrating their total lack of hand/eye co-ordination in all diciplines from flying to hanging a picture.
My opinion on this subject is, Don't kid yourself that us "oldies" are past it.
I know a few extremely competent & perfectly "with it" pilots well over 80 who learned to fly very late.
Whether or not my previous life of enthusiasm, some gliding ~1956 break ~1980, helped I'm not sure. I am no fighter jock nor aerobatt but I have never had a comment from any Instructor that has dissapointed me.
Nor do I need a wee any more regularly than my youthful associates

[Sam Rutherford]

Two of the PIC on our last Trans-Africa were eighty years old - now if that's not impressive and humbling then I don't know what is...

Fly safe, for a really long time, Sam.

[B2N2]

For what it's worth, in my experience;
age truly isn't everything.
Same as the teenagers, the elderly are hard to compare.
I was a very young (read immature) 18 year old when I started flying.
Have also met an 19 year old F-16 driver who was at the time the youngest pilot that ever soloed an F-16 at the age of 18.
Huge difference obviously.
On the other side of the age-scale same things apply.
You can be a very old or very young 70-year old.
Very active or vegative state, I've seen and experienced both.
May I remind you that Chuck Norris is currently 71 and can still open a can of whoop-@ss.................

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I wasn't posting about guys that have been flying for years and are still sh1t hot at 95 years of age; a totally different consideration. It's a guy considering starting the PPL at 70 with zero previous flying experience that interests me.

We learn our motor skills while young (how to walk, how to catch a thrown ball or hit it with a bat etc.... how to hunt when we lived in caves) and the human body has evolved to do that. Hence my interest in someone developing a whole new set of such skills at an advanced age - not someone who already has those skills and reaches that advanced age while still practising them.

Heck, from where I stand in my early 60s and with time accellerating the way it does as you get older, I can clearly see where 70 is... only just over the horizon.

[cumulusrider]

Oldies but Goodies

At the Lasham regionals gliding competition in may we had pilots aged 84 and 88 sharing a Stemme. mind you one of them was Derek Piggott .

(In case anyone hasnt heard of him he was instructing on troop carrying gliders in the war, flew stunts in 'Those magnificent men in Their flying Machines' Etc. and was CFI at Lasham for years and has written the most used books in gliding)

[iwrbf]

Hi,

I seriously doubt that a good pilot is made of fast reflexes and motoric skills. Sufficient knowledge and good judgement combined with a non-ego-impaired character are the main ingredients, IMHO :-)

Personally, I wouldn't want to fly solo being older than the average as the risk for temporary impairment because of a sudden health problem is way higher than in younger years. But I'm a fan of (human) redundancy and 2 pairs of Mk 2 Eyeballs up front, but that's just an opinion :-)

Kind regards,
Peter

[XLC]

I do think that with the medicals checks and the required training age is not really issue any more, except that it might indeed take longer.
A friend of mine who is instructor (gliders) at EBZR told me that on average (!) for every year above 25 he needs to teach about 30'~1h in extra flying lessons compared to those of the 18~25 years old bracket. However, he also noted that lately there are more and more exceptions to this.

[vabsie]

We learn our motor skills while young (how to walk, how to catch a thrown ball or hit it with a bat etc.... how to hunt when we lived in caves) and the human body has evolved to do that.

I think you may have answered your own question in the above paragraph - Surely you will use those same motor skills already learnt during your younger life to also fly an aeroplane - Or else there will be this horrible dreaded cut-off line in life where you are not allowed to learn anything new after a certain age.

Granted though - as you get older reflexes may get a little slower but this is for the individual / medical check to assess.

Just my opinion.

Vabsie

[Maoraigh1]

"as you get older reflexes may get a little slower"
Is the slowing of reflexes for fit people that much? Remember the muscle movements in flying are much smaller than in, say tennis.
ISTR studies in the US showing little change with age.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I wasn't think of 'reflexes', more the aquisition of complex motor skills late in life. Any newly-qualified PPL will still be 'flying by numbers' to a certain extent (just past the motorway throttle back to such and such RPM, lower flap, re-trim to such and such speed.... that sort of thing) and conciously thinking about which flying controls to move and how much to move them, a bit like a novice driver thinking about pressing the clutch to change gear.

After a while, such things become automatic; flying the aeroplane around the circuit requires little or no concious thought about moving the controls - you just do it! You don't think about pressing left rudder with power, or right as you take power off, or constantly chasing heading and speed - the needles wander far less as one gets experienced... etc. This means that if something goes wrong (engine failure, say) one can devote most of one's brainpower to planning and executing the forced landing since actually flying the aeroplane will be or should be semi-automatic.

Will someone learning to fly late in life be able to do this within a reasonable time.... or at all?

[mixture]

I seriously doubt that a good pilot is made of fast reflexes and motoric skills.

Its more ......
the reaction times
the ability to cope with the workload
the ability to understand, correctly read back and swiftly react to what you're being told on the radio without asking the controller to repeat each time
etc.

I would say more, but I won't in public as I've been in the right hand seat of aircraft of a couple of over 70's in the last year or so whose abilities to cope on their own have somewhat worried me (and I unfortunately was not acting in capacity of instructor or examiner !). I fear they may be PPRuNe readers and hence do not want to embarrass them in public.

It's important not to kid yourself that its easy. Remember that unlike driving, or sailing you can't just stop on a whim.... once you've left the tarmac it's up to you to get yourself back in one piece, nobody can do it for you. So great if you want to do it, but perhaps at the very least consider a suitably qualified safety pilot.

[Crash one]

It's important not to kid yourself that its easy. Remember that unlike driving, or sailing you can't just stop on a whim.... once you've left the tarmac it's up to you to get yourself back in one piece, nobody can do it for you. So great if you want to do it, but perhaps at the very least consider a suitably qualified safety pilot.

I am utterly speechless.
What a load of utter rubbish.

Edit: less speechless. I have flown with a couple of under 30s that I would not fly with again.
I cannot stand this generalisation attitude that us old fogies should relinquish our driving licences, stop flying, get help with anything we do, etc. It seems to me that competence at anything has very little to do with age, & younger persons have no business questioning competence solely based on age, certainly not at 70. How do accident figures stack up to age related? How do reported CAS busts stack up? Failed forced landings? Incompetent RT? etc.

[thing]

Bloody hell that's a bit patronising. I'm 55 (OK not 70) but went solo on my sixth flight after 4.30 and did my PPL in the 45 hours. In fact I was ready long before 45 hours. I don't feel the need for a safety pilot and my medical was AOK. I have my own teeth, still enjoy the delights of carnal passion and have a full head of hair.

Get some in, as the old saying goes.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Jeez. You'd think that as soon as you hit 60 your brain fell out and was replaced by over cooked cabbage.

Obviously I don't know what I'm talking about having only put forward 500 ish students forward for their PPL tests and flown with loads of over 70's.

70 is the new 50 and that's coming from someone in their early 30's...