How do you fly at night without IR
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Plumpton Green
The other distinct advantage is that Florida is hard to get lost in, and the weather is normally pretty clear.
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: In the boot of my car!
- In terms of engine failure options, there's not a lot of difference between the dangers of IMC or night flying with a single engine; if the engine coughs one gives you a poor view of the ground, the other will eventually give you a hopefully good view, but possibly too late to do much with it. Doing either is a calculated risk.
Yes if the clouds run to the ground! Any pilot who flies a single over fog banks or very low cloud is taking a large risk.
The Single engine pilot who flies IMC with a minimum of 500 to 1000 feet AGL at least will have enough time to turn into a field and make a visual landing.
The single night or single day over V low cloud or fog is throwing the dice.
We all know the joke about engine failure at night! Set up a glide, aim for a dark area, turn on the landing lights! If you like what you see land if you dont turn them off again
But thats not the point. We are talking about pilots with minimal instrument or instrument nav abilities being allowed by the authorities to head off into what is effectively instrument conditions.
I dont understand the mindset of the CAA at times often guided by tradition not sense.
The form should be PPL IMCR (with built in night) or PPL IMCR Night and not PPL VFR Night!
Pace
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: United Kingdom
Night VFR, or whatever you call it, is an artefact of the ICAO system and goes back some decades. Nobody in their right mind would today propose a privilege for unrestricted night flight without some instrument capability (not necessarily a full IR which involves a huge amount of procedural flying, not to mention a vast amount of theoretical ground school garbage, which is not related to operating visually between airports with lighting and in VMC conditions).
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: In the boot of my car!
Billie
That is another matter! There will be a lot of things we can no longer do under EASA.
Hopefully the French will progress their achievable IR, The UK will have the guts to say "OK you abolish our IMCR and we will adopt the French IR which I am surprised the CAA have not already done.
Then and only then we may get some movement from EASA (Elimate Aviators Strangle Aviation)
Pace
That is another matter! There will be a lot of things we can no longer do under EASA.
Hopefully the French will progress their achievable IR, The UK will have the guts to say "OK you abolish our IMCR and we will adopt the French IR which I am surprised the CAA have not already done.
Then and only then we may get some movement from EASA (Elimate Aviators Strangle Aviation)
Pace
Joined: May 2006
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From: Londonish
In a similar position to Ghengis, I'd characterise night flight, and night navigation rather seperately.
Night navigation by looking out the window is perfectly feasible, but which features are relevant changes a lot, as does the rigour required to do it properly. For example roads are (mostly) great, railway lines are mostly not. Hills and terrain are both more relevant (MSA), and less helpful (can't see them), lakes can be handy on a moonlit night, and so on. VOR's and NDB's can make life a lot easier too.
However, night flight without the ability to fly the aeroplane on instruments is (in my opinion) pushing the limits more than a bit. I'm going from memory, but I'm pretty sure the required equipment for night flight in aus (where I did my night rating and all my night flying) included a horizon. The training was also pretty comprehensive - it mandated a 2+hr nav into a 'remote' area (i.e. lack of lighting), significant amount of instrument flying, and a minimum of 10hrs night experience to get the rating. There were a few other bits like demonstrating competence to navigate by VOR/NDB, partial panel and such.
There is however, a lot more to an IR than being able to fly on instruments, much of which isn't relevant to night VFR.
Night navigation by looking out the window is perfectly feasible, but which features are relevant changes a lot, as does the rigour required to do it properly. For example roads are (mostly) great, railway lines are mostly not. Hills and terrain are both more relevant (MSA), and less helpful (can't see them), lakes can be handy on a moonlit night, and so on. VOR's and NDB's can make life a lot easier too.
However, night flight without the ability to fly the aeroplane on instruments is (in my opinion) pushing the limits more than a bit. I'm going from memory, but I'm pretty sure the required equipment for night flight in aus (where I did my night rating and all my night flying) included a horizon. The training was also pretty comprehensive - it mandated a 2+hr nav into a 'remote' area (i.e. lack of lighting), significant amount of instrument flying, and a minimum of 10hrs night experience to get the rating. There were a few other bits like demonstrating competence to navigate by VOR/NDB, partial panel and such.
There is however, a lot more to an IR than being able to fly on instruments, much of which isn't relevant to night VFR.
Joined: Apr 2010
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From: IRS NAV ONLY
Night flying is much more complex than pure day VFR. It is almost impossible to fly the aircraft without instruments, since many times you don't have the luxury of natural horizon upon which you can set the desired aircraft attitude. It is also impossible to predict whether you will be in IMC or VMC in the next 10 seconds if there is no moonlight: I've been in inadvertent IMC in the valley during night VFR and it wasn't nice, especially since I've had no real instrument training at the time. In order to be safe during night flying, you don't have to be just current in instrument flying, but you have to know where all the relevant switches are in the aircraft, so you can access them without using the torch - this is especially important in emergency, if you for example have an alternator failure: I'd rather use remaining power in battery for COM/NAV station and exterior lights than panel lighting.
I agree that you don't need an IR to fly at night, since it would be a massive overkill for somebody who needs a night qualification just to get back home, if something delays him for an hour or so (not saying this is entirely safe/smart thing to do, since night/IFR flying requires much more careful preflight planning and briefing than day VFR below clouds). Surely you don't need to know how to do an NDB hold with 30 kt crosswinds or how to fly a night NDB approach from the sea to an ins-shore airfield with partial panel (e.g. no ADI, DG/HSI) in marginal weather (ceiling just above MDA or even below and some 10+ kts crosswind). That being said, in order to conduct a safe night VFR flight, you should be capable of flying the aircraft according to instruments, including basic NDB and VOR/DME navigation, some partial panel flying (especially some turns in level flight and during climb in descend, which could come handy in inadvertent IMC, which is much more likely during night than day) and a few precision and non-precision approaches, but far from IR standards (e.g. DH 200ft for a full ILS approach), but more like (M)DH of 700-1000ft, so you are able to find the airfield and position yourself approximately on the final approach, from which you will then be able to continue fully visual towards the runway. I'm sure IO540 will come banging at this that even a basic PPL should be able to fly the ILS approach, but I think night training should (in addition to current syllabus) include excercises, different to each pilot. For example, if one always flies from a home airfield and comes home the same day, but would like to stay at the destination a bit longer, perhaps to see some more things in a town and he doesn't want to worry if he comes in before SS+30 or later, it would be a no-brainer to teach him how to fly full ILS approach, if his home airfield is only equipped with a VOR/DME and there is a published instrument VOR/DME approach. It would be much better to teach him how to fly that particular approach (preferrably on different occasions, in different weather/moonlight conditions) and perhaps an approach at the first and second most close airfield. And if somebody really wants to do some serious traveling/touring, he will sooner or later require the full IR anyway.
As far as night navigation using "the only correct method" (heading and time = DR) goes, it's virtually impossible, unless you know the area really well, but I wouldn't go blindly flying at night without radio navigation/GPS equipment, even if I've been to the place during day.
I agree that you don't need an IR to fly at night, since it would be a massive overkill for somebody who needs a night qualification just to get back home, if something delays him for an hour or so (not saying this is entirely safe/smart thing to do, since night/IFR flying requires much more careful preflight planning and briefing than day VFR below clouds). Surely you don't need to know how to do an NDB hold with 30 kt crosswinds or how to fly a night NDB approach from the sea to an ins-shore airfield with partial panel (e.g. no ADI, DG/HSI) in marginal weather (ceiling just above MDA or even below and some 10+ kts crosswind). That being said, in order to conduct a safe night VFR flight, you should be capable of flying the aircraft according to instruments, including basic NDB and VOR/DME navigation, some partial panel flying (especially some turns in level flight and during climb in descend, which could come handy in inadvertent IMC, which is much more likely during night than day) and a few precision and non-precision approaches, but far from IR standards (e.g. DH 200ft for a full ILS approach), but more like (M)DH of 700-1000ft, so you are able to find the airfield and position yourself approximately on the final approach, from which you will then be able to continue fully visual towards the runway. I'm sure IO540 will come banging at this that even a basic PPL should be able to fly the ILS approach, but I think night training should (in addition to current syllabus) include excercises, different to each pilot. For example, if one always flies from a home airfield and comes home the same day, but would like to stay at the destination a bit longer, perhaps to see some more things in a town and he doesn't want to worry if he comes in before SS+30 or later, it would be a no-brainer to teach him how to fly full ILS approach, if his home airfield is only equipped with a VOR/DME and there is a published instrument VOR/DME approach. It would be much better to teach him how to fly that particular approach (preferrably on different occasions, in different weather/moonlight conditions) and perhaps an approach at the first and second most close airfield. And if somebody really wants to do some serious traveling/touring, he will sooner or later require the full IR anyway.
As far as night navigation using "the only correct method" (heading and time = DR) goes, it's virtually impossible, unless you know the area really well, but I wouldn't go blindly flying at night without radio navigation/GPS equipment, even if I've been to the place during day.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: United Kingdom
As far as night navigation using "the only correct method" (heading and time = DR) goes, it's virtually impossible, unless you know the area really well
Controlling the aircraft without reference to instruments is quite another matter and it is clearly foolish to venture outside the circuit area at night without the ability to fly by sole reference to instruments. As has been pointed out, you don't know you're IMC until you see the ghostly glow of the nav lights.
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 199
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From: Australia
im a NVFR ppl and i enjoy the privilege and excercise it very carefully.
Navigation isnt that hard at night in Australia....theres a lot of not much between most towns, and planty of features even at night. Non TSO Gps isnt legal as sole means of navigation, and the VOR and NDB is mandatory and very helpful. I always carry a gps any way, but the lighting has to be very low.
The rules in Australia are strict. You learn them and follow them without exception.
In particular, look for smooth air, close to pefect weather or at least a few thousand feet space between LSALT and the ceiling, and a formal flight plan is filed.
The flying has to be really accurate, with awareness of the risks of spatial disorientation and the requirements of efficient instrument scanning.
Also try to stay current. Check the aircraft very carefully in daylight. Carry plenty of fuel. Good moonlight is a great help. Be strict about maintaining Best roc on climbout to avoid pitch down illusion and eyes inside for the first 500 ft after T/O.
My favourite night flight is over Sydney Harbour.
Navigation isnt that hard at night in Australia....theres a lot of not much between most towns, and planty of features even at night. Non TSO Gps isnt legal as sole means of navigation, and the VOR and NDB is mandatory and very helpful. I always carry a gps any way, but the lighting has to be very low.
The rules in Australia are strict. You learn them and follow them without exception.
In particular, look for smooth air, close to pefect weather or at least a few thousand feet space between LSALT and the ceiling, and a formal flight plan is filed.
The flying has to be really accurate, with awareness of the risks of spatial disorientation and the requirements of efficient instrument scanning.
Also try to stay current. Check the aircraft very carefully in daylight. Carry plenty of fuel. Good moonlight is a great help. Be strict about maintaining Best roc on climbout to avoid pitch down illusion and eyes inside for the first 500 ft after T/O.
My favourite night flight is over Sydney Harbour.
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: UK
I would respectfully contest that statement. Provided that the exercise is carefully planned and the principles are correctly employed, there is no problem with navigating by visual reference over most of England. Agreed, there are areas of Scotland and Wales that present more of a challenge but then I wouldn't want to fly a single over that sort of terrain at night without a parachute in any case. I spent a good few years teaching night navigation (and sending students solo) in the Chipmunk with no navaids and no problems.
Controlling the aircraft without reference to instruments is quite another matter and it is clearly foolish to venture outside the circuit area at night without the ability to fly by sole reference to instruments. As has been pointed out, you don't know you're IMC until you see the ghostly glow of the nav lights.
Controlling the aircraft without reference to instruments is quite another matter and it is clearly foolish to venture outside the circuit area at night without the ability to fly by sole reference to instruments. As has been pointed out, you don't know you're IMC until you see the ghostly glow of the nav lights.
G
