Manchester crash reported BBC
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
If I do pursue that IR option I will delight in setting fire to the nylon when I am done so I will be able to report on how well it went. Might even put it on Youtube
I'm not too worried about personal protection from fire in the air, especially as my aircraft is fuelled with less flammable Jet A-1 and both engines are located well behind me. It's maximising the chances of escape from the aircraft in the hopefully very unlikely event of an accident that I'm more concerned with.
In addition to our burned crewman I mentioned, I will never forget the thought of a friend of mine who perished in a crashed and burning biplane in 1989, only about two miles from where I'm sitting now. His girlfriend also suffered very serious burns trying to pull him out. Before the accident I was the last one to sit in the front seat he died in. Had she been wearing more suitable clothing she might have been less badly burned.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 2
From: UK
The chances are (we don't know for sure of course) that this aircraft crashed and then burned, as is usually the case when an aeroplane catches fire. Nothing to do with faulty hoses, but everything to do with ruptured fuel tanks when the aeroplane hit the ground or the house and broke up.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
The only place you can get reasonable priced cotton pilot shirts is to get them made to measure somewhere in the east.
The only down side is they are an utter bitch to iron.
I got a load made after burning my shoulder.
The only down side is they are an utter bitch to iron.
I got a load made after burning my shoulder.
Joined: Feb 2006
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 168
From: Station 42
Just for the record and not specifically apertaining to this incident:
1) All aircraft fuel/oil/hydraulic flexible hoses have pressure test intervals and/or ultimate lives. Engine hoses are usually replaced as a matter of course at scheduled engine change.
2) Overtightening hose or rigid pipe couplings can sometimes be as bad as undertightening, especially on aluminium alloy fittings.
3) Fuel filter bowls can leak if not tightened or locked correctly. The exhaust tail pipe can be in the vicinity on some aircraft.
1) All aircraft fuel/oil/hydraulic flexible hoses have pressure test intervals and/or ultimate lives. Engine hoses are usually replaced as a matter of course at scheduled engine change.
2) Overtightening hose or rigid pipe couplings can sometimes be as bad as undertightening, especially on aluminium alloy fittings.
3) Fuel filter bowls can leak if not tightened or locked correctly. The exhaust tail pipe can be in the vicinity on some aircraft.
Fly Conventional Gear
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,600
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From: Winchester
I think as a number of posts have picked up on wearing clothing that isn't going to burn you badly could be just as relevant to a post crash fire as an in flight one. Obviously we do not know in this case but it could buy valuable time for example if you were trapped in a burning aircraft after a crash.
Does not necessarily mean I will start wearing nomex all the time but I might pay more attention to what my passengers are wearing for example. I almost always were cotton anyway when flying or otherwise since I do not like synthetic fabrics. I always take my hi vis (if I have bothered to put it on in the first place!) off when getting in the cockpit as well.
Nice to see a reasoned debate on this subject.
Does not necessarily mean I will start wearing nomex all the time but I might pay more attention to what my passengers are wearing for example. I almost always were cotton anyway when flying or otherwise since I do not like synthetic fabrics. I always take my hi vis (if I have bothered to put it on in the first place!) off when getting in the cockpit as well.
Nice to see a reasoned debate on this subject.
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 181
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From: United Kingdom
Originally Posted by Cat.S
This website is reporting it as RF
ASN Aircraft accident 29-JUL-2011 Piper PA-38-112 Tomahawk G-RVRF
Pity if it was RM as I always found that the nicest one of the fleet to fly, not that that matters a jot compared to the tragedy affecting the crew and those close to them.
ASN Aircraft accident 29-JUL-2011 Piper PA-38-112 Tomahawk G-RVRF
Pity if it was RM as I always found that the nicest one of the fleet to fly, not that that matters a jot compared to the tragedy affecting the crew and those close to them.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just to add...
Nomex underclothing (long-sleeve vests, leggings and socks etc) are available from the likes of Sparco, OMP and Alpinestars etc. Some folk may find that this could offer them useful protection when worn under appropriate cotton clothing if they don't want to wear a full external suit?
This is a very sad accident and took me straight back to a fatal accident (1997) up the coast from where I live at the now disused Brunton Airfield in Northumberland. A Maule crashed, caught fire and the eyewitness accounts that appeared in the news made for awful reading.
Nomex underclothing (long-sleeve vests, leggings and socks etc) are available from the likes of Sparco, OMP and Alpinestars etc. Some folk may find that this could offer them useful protection when worn under appropriate cotton clothing if they don't want to wear a full external suit?
This is a very sad accident and took me straight back to a fatal accident (1997) up the coast from where I live at the now disused Brunton Airfield in Northumberland. A Maule crashed, caught fire and the eyewitness accounts that appeared in the news made for awful reading.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 370
Likes: 13
From: Uranus
Update
Just stumbled across this old thread -
My phone went ballistic on the day as I was enroute to Barton to fly one of LAC's GroB 115s. The news reported a twin seat single engine trainer so lots thought it might have been me.
I did actually fly the next day and can remember seeing the wreckage inbetween the houses as descending deadside.
1- If I ever flew a Passenger from there afterwards I cannot recall using 09 L/R - I asked for 04 and accepted the X wind if in limits purely so I had options after a PLATO.
2- As a direct result of this accident and thread I went to Demon Tweeks and bought some OMP Nomex undergarments that are light and not visible under a shirt and pants but certified flame retardant.
I also have NOMEX flying suits and will use them when in the Civi environment.
https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...RVRF_04-12.pdf
My phone went ballistic on the day as I was enroute to Barton to fly one of LAC's GroB 115s. The news reported a twin seat single engine trainer so lots thought it might have been me.
I did actually fly the next day and can remember seeing the wreckage inbetween the houses as descending deadside.
1- If I ever flew a Passenger from there afterwards I cannot recall using 09 L/R - I asked for 04 and accepted the X wind if in limits purely so I had options after a PLATO.
2- As a direct result of this accident and thread I went to Demon Tweeks and bought some OMP Nomex undergarments that are light and not visible under a shirt and pants but certified flame retardant.
I also have NOMEX flying suits and will use them when in the Civi environment.
https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...RVRF_04-12.pdf
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 2
From: UK
There are serious lessons to be learned from this tragedy over and above buying Nomex undies; not least, whatever happens the first priority is to fly the aeroplane (the old aviate, navigate, communicate - in that order).
Does anyone know how the young passenger is these days?
Does anyone know how the young passenger is these days?
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: UK
There are serious lessons to be learned from this tragedy over and above buying Nomex undies; not least, whatever happens the first priority is to fly the aeroplane (the old aviate, navigate, communicate - in that order).
Does anyone know how the young passenger is these days?
Does anyone know how the young passenger is these days?
I understand the passenger still works (or was working for) for the associated flying school in Liverpool. A really friendly chap, and very brave. A long recovery process I imagine, he seemed to be doing well although I haven’t seen him for a few years.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....carred-3860614
Last edited by PapaEchoNovember; 29th April 2016 at 09:28. Reason: Link Attached
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 370
Likes: 13
From: Uranus
Yes - agreed the Immediate action of pitch down is far more important.
As an experiment after this accident I took a G115 up to clear airspace Nr Clitheroe and set up a climb at 4000' in the T/O configuration at 68Kts. After carb heat I throttled back and tried to maintain the climb attitude to see exactly what happens.
Suffice to say I counted literally to 3 and the aircraft stalled immediately with hardly any 'conventional' warnings and entered a hard wing drop to the left- although I didn't allow it to start spinning.
The main lesson was how it differed from other stalls that I'd tried - it just stopped flying basically - the aggressiveness was surprising. At 300' you'd have no chance.
That was my main lesson that I still remember.
As an experiment after this accident I took a G115 up to clear airspace Nr Clitheroe and set up a climb at 4000' in the T/O configuration at 68Kts. After carb heat I throttled back and tried to maintain the climb attitude to see exactly what happens.
Suffice to say I counted literally to 3 and the aircraft stalled immediately with hardly any 'conventional' warnings and entered a hard wing drop to the left- although I didn't allow it to start spinning.
The main lesson was how it differed from other stalls that I'd tried - it just stopped flying basically - the aggressiveness was surprising. At 300' you'd have no chance.
That was my main lesson that I still remember.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 2
From: UK
Yes - agreed the Immediate action of pitch down is far more important.
As an experiment after this accident I took a G115 up to clear airspace Nr Clitheroe and set up a climb at 4000' in the T/O configuration at 68Kts. After carb heat I throttled back and tried to maintain the climb attitude to see exactly what happens.
Suffice to say I counted literally to 3 and the aircraft stalled immediately with hardly any 'conventional' warnings and entered a hard wing drop to the left- although I didn't allow it to start spinning.
The main lesson was how it differed from other stalls that I'd tried - it just stopped flying basically - the aggressiveness was surprising. At 300' you'd have no chance.
That was my main lesson that I still remember.
As an experiment after this accident I took a G115 up to clear airspace Nr Clitheroe and set up a climb at 4000' in the T/O configuration at 68Kts. After carb heat I throttled back and tried to maintain the climb attitude to see exactly what happens.
Suffice to say I counted literally to 3 and the aircraft stalled immediately with hardly any 'conventional' warnings and entered a hard wing drop to the left- although I didn't allow it to start spinning.
The main lesson was how it differed from other stalls that I'd tried - it just stopped flying basically - the aggressiveness was surprising. At 300' you'd have no chance.
That was my main lesson that I still remember.
You have to get the stock forward IMMDITELY the engine quits on EFTO.
The aeroplane has low inertia (it's slow), and it's nose high. An immediate stall is a heartbeat away. That's why we train for it. Pavlov's Dogs.... There isn't time to think about it. Just DO it. It worked for me (I've always wondered if it would) and I suspect it would for most. Very sad it didn't in this case.
