Flying into leeds CTA Class D aispace

[John2006]

Hi, first time on here, i gained my ppl last year and im looking to fly over my own town of wakefield which lays under leeds bradfords class D CTA from 3000'. Just wonderd if anyone could offer any advice about doing this. Would it be advisable to stay under the airspace at say 2000' or request permission for a zone transit say at 3000ft?
Thanks

[Jan Olieslagers]

-) I know CTR's and I know TMA's , but what is a CTA?
-) you mention 2000' and 3000' and probably more, but are these heights or altitudes?

Not that I am particularly familiar with the area mentioned, but your questioning seems vague. Which is not uncommon, here and elsewhere.

[callum91]

-) I know CTR's and I know TMA's , but what is a CTA?

CTA = Control Area - an area of controlled airspace which extends upwards from a specified base.

-) you mention 2000' and 3000' and probably more, but are these heights or altitudes?

The dimensions of controlled airspace are always depicted as Altitudes (or Flight Levels if above the TA) on the type of charts we use here.

[Conan the Vulgarian]

I notice the Northern bit of Wakefield is under the part of the CTA that has its base at 2500', just in case you hadn't noticed that. You can just fly under the CTA without talking to anyone at 2400' / 2900' if you like. It's probably worth at least listening to Leeds approach though to get their QNH to make sure you don't bust the CTA. On the other hand, if you want to fly right over the centre of town and can't glide clear from that height, you could contact Leeds approach for a zone transit, but then you'd generally be expected to fly from A to B on your transit, not start circling around sightseeing. If you can route below the CTA and always remain able to glide clear of built up areas, that's the best thing to do, then you can circle around as much as you like.

[RTN11]

Establish contact, and be as clear as possible about what you want.

Requesting to enter the airspace to circle a specific feature is not uncommon, although the controller will be much more used to people asking to cut through the airspace enroute from A to B.

[John2006]

Okay thanks for the advice and pointing out the CTA at 2500'. Maybe flying under the CTA but flying around the outskirts of the town would be a plan, and all so help with the glide clear rule. Ill definately contact leeds radar whatever i do. Sure some people at Sherburn may have a little advice too.
Thanks again

[helicopter-redeye]

Call Leeds Approach 10 mins before zone entry and tell thenm what you would like to do (from which entry point/ to where/ for how long/ with time estimates). If there is not a queue of traffic inbound to the LBA they will probably give you a transponder code, altitude and ask you to report at X point.

Pick a weekend, mid afternoon, for best effect.

h-r

[Jan Olieslagers]

Quote:
-) I know CTR's and I know TMA's , but what is a CTA?
CTA = Control Area - an area of controlled airspace which extends upwards from a specified base.

Well, I can't help feeling totally at loss about the UK habits. Sure 't will be covered somewhere in ICAO documents, but what is the use of a generic term like 'CTA'? What controlled airspace can exist except CTR's and TMA's and airways, and the exotic stuff high up? Is this CTA thing one more UK particularity?

To O/P: sincere apologies, your questions seem quite legitimate, twas just poor little me bewildered once again. Seems I really should give up to try and understand the UK ways of flying.

[[edit: my above gust of spleen must really be limited to the FORMAL aspect of things. Informally, one just calls the most likely service/frequency and happily applies whatever information they have on offer - or so I understand. Should work universally, if anything does.]]

[flybymike]

Jan, a CTA is simply a class D (rather than a class A) TMA. It surrounds the CTR at most of the significant UK regional airports and allows public transport arrivals and departures access to/from the airways system whilst remaining in controlled airspace and whilst also releasing class G airspace at the lower altitudes for the GA plebs. It is perfectly legal to fly beneath a CTA without talking to anyone just as in the case of a TMA

[XL319]

Don't forget it depends what Alt/FL ATC ask you to fly at as well. Quite often they may ask you to transit not above 2500' QNH although this could differ

[loaded as a dice]

Hi john2006, i fly out of Sherburn and have flown over Rothwell quite a few times, pm me if you want and i will run through it with you, it's no big deal.

[BackPacker]

Jan, a CTA is simply a class D (rather than a class A) TMA.

Although I agree that for all practical purposes the difference between a CTA and a TMA is moot, the above seems to suggest that all TMAs are class A, and that a CTA is a workaround for that. But that is not the case: TMAs can be all classes too. In the Netherlands there are a lot of TMAs that are class E for instance.

Anyway,

If you're going to fly over your own town it's presumably to see (and photograph) your own house. That is something that is better done at 1000' than at 2500' unless you have a really good photographer with a really long lens. Study Google Earth beforehand and if necessary take a drive around the neighborhood. Even in a city there are usually several places that you can use to satisfy the "land clear" rule. (You may have to get wet in the (very, very rare) case of an engine failure though.)

[2 sheds]

better done at 1000'

Even in a city there are usually several places that you can use to satisfy the "land clear" rule.

Some rather dubious advice!

2 s

[mrmum]

It is very dubious for the UK, but BackPacker is in Holland where the definition of congested may be different. The UK CAA have stated that open spaces within a city such as parks are still congested for the purpose of rule 5. IIRC they have prosecuted people who flew over London in the past and tried to use the land in parks/river as a defence.

[englishal]

If their airspace starts at 3000', then why not just fly over at 1500-2000' (depending on how built up the area is - I agree with Backpacker, I go over my house at 1300' but then it is not really a "built up area") and do whatever you want? You could call them out of courtesy to let them know what you are doing, but no clearance is required and they probably wouldn't thank you for messing around in their airspace when there is no need to.

[BackPacker]

We regularly fly over Amsterdam at 1000'-1400', with the full permission of ATC (as Amsterdam lies in the Schiphol CTR). There is no space whatsoever (not even a park) on dry land to "land clear" but there are several canals and lakes that you can use.

Obviously you will not be able to use the plane afterwards in such an event, and it's even a question of whether you will survive personally. But as far as I understand, the "land clear" requirement is not there for your own protection. It's there to protect the people on the ground. (If the "land clear" requirement would be there also for your protection, then it would also effectively forbid all flight over open water, out of gliding distance of land.)

So if the CAA has prosecuted people who claimed that the "land clear" requirement was met by using Hyde Park as an emergency landing site, I'm all for the CAA. But if you are flying over London within gliding distance of the Thames, and are fully prepared to accept the consequences of ditching there, in my opinion the ultimate objective of the "land clear" requirement has been met.

Anyway, we're not talking about overflying London here, as there are specific rules for overflying London in a SEP anyway. All I'm saying is that you can get much better pictures at 1000' than at 2500', and if you prepare things properly you may well find that this is possible even regarding the (CAA interpretation of the) "land clear" rule.

[2 sheds]

Backpacker

I think that you should be careful about reading too much into:

We regularly fly over Amsterdam at 1000'-1400', with the full permission of ATC

ICAO:

The issuance of air traffic control clearances by air traffic control units constitutes authority for an aircraft to proceed only in so far as known air traffic is concerned. ATC clearances do not constitute authority to violate any applicable regulations for promoting the safety of flight operations or for any other purpose; neither do clearances relieve a pilot-in-command of any responsibility whatsoever in connection with a possible violation of applicable rules and regulations.

2 s

[BackPacker]

True. ATC doesn't have anything to do with the "land clear" rule. But these things happen often enough (heck, in places these things are actually notified as such in the AIP - take the Romeo arrival into Rotterdam for instance) that the police knows about it too - and they don't seem to be prosecuting for this.

[Jan Olieslagers]

a CTA is simply a class D (rather than a class A) TMA

Thanks for explaining patiently. I'll remember it as just one more UK peculiarity. You guys must be really keen on scaring off foreigners by being as different as you can ever manage within ICAO limits.

[flybymike]

We seem to do our best to scare off UK pilots too. And where we fail, EASA can finish off the good work until we have all regulated ourselves up our own backsides....