First trip in my new toy, and....whoops!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kent UK
Age: 70
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First trip in my new toy, and....whoops!
Well, here she was, my Luscombe, waiting for me. We started the checkout with a couple of trips down the runway, tail up, to get the feel of it. Wind was light and just a few degrees off. Now I had the feeling those heel brakes were going to be trouble. I couldn't plant my feet comfortably without touching them. And they were only on my side.
Anyway, first run was okay, some swing on raising and lowering the tail, but corrected, with a little input from my checkout pilot. We turned and did the next run downwind (it's a farm strip and there wasn't a soul around) and then, as the tail came down, the swing started and it just seemed to get worse. He was calling for left brake, or right brake, and my feet were all over the place - at one time I couldn't find the rudder pedal or the brake! And then we ground-looped.
At least it was slow, the only damage was to my pride. We did a few more runs and things seemed to shape up a little, before going off for some upper air work. That went fine, but I'm still left with that ignominious display on the runway - and I'll have to get my feet sorted!
Anyway, first run was okay, some swing on raising and lowering the tail, but corrected, with a little input from my checkout pilot. We turned and did the next run downwind (it's a farm strip and there wasn't a soul around) and then, as the tail came down, the swing started and it just seemed to get worse. He was calling for left brake, or right brake, and my feet were all over the place - at one time I couldn't find the rudder pedal or the brake! And then we ground-looped.
At least it was slow, the only damage was to my pride. We did a few more runs and things seemed to shape up a little, before going off for some upper air work. That went fine, but I'm still left with that ignominious display on the runway - and I'll have to get my feet sorted!
When I was first taught to fly Chipmunks 42 years ago, I was told that you NEVER accept a tailwind for anything except very cautious low speed taxying.....
What on earth was your 'checkout pilot' trying to teach you?
What on earth was your 'checkout pilot' trying to teach you?
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lesson you will never forget - tailwinds are blooming dangerous!
Oh and being unable to sort out which control is where is also blooming dangerous.
Oh and if you're workload is so high that you cannot accept and respond to commands then it is too soon.
So you now understand taildraggers are dynamically unstable and if you get it wrong it gets expensive and dangerous very very quickly.
If your checkout pilot learns the same things you may survive!
Oh and being unable to sort out which control is where is also blooming dangerous.
Oh and if you're workload is so high that you cannot accept and respond to commands then it is too soon.
So you now understand taildraggers are dynamically unstable and if you get it wrong it gets expensive and dangerous very very quickly.
If your checkout pilot learns the same things you may survive!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: South West UK
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a very odd way to conduct type conversion training for a pilot on a new type! Kev, are you already qualified on tailwheel aeroplanes and what level of experience do you have on them. I presume that your "checkout pilot" is not an instructor (I presume this because you don't call him an instructor); it might be better if you were to find an instructor with type experience and with experience of teaching tailwheel flying.
Happy landings!!
3 Point
Happy landings!!
3 Point
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly there isnt a lot wrong with a tailwind takeoff or landing as long as you have the runway and the wind isnt out of the aircraft limits.
Many Grass runways especially fields have quite a slope and obstructions and a slight tailwind is a better option than a steep downhill landing with a slight headwind?
Just a thought?
Pace
Many Grass runways especially fields have quite a slope and obstructions and a slight tailwind is a better option than a steep downhill landing with a slight headwind?
Just a thought?
Pace
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly there isnt a lot wrong with a tailwind takeoff or landing as long as you have the runway and the wind isnt out of the aircraft limits.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
looking back at his posting he does say the wind was light! 2 to 5 kts tailwind is neither here nor there so maybe the check pilot/instructor was trying to get him used to the feel of the aircraft by doing runs in either direction to save a long taxi for a couple of KTS of wind?
Pace
Pace
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been flying mine for years and have never been brave (or foolhardy) enough to try what you did. Taxying is done with the tail down and while I've been tempted in the past to try lifting it it's always felt so dodgy that I've chickened out. I suspect your problem arose because of an initial reduction in directional control caused a) By reducing power causing less propwosh over the rudder, b) Lowering the tail causing it to come out of what propwash remains c) decelleration naturally making the back end want to overtake the front.
If you want to try that trick again I'd suggest not reducing the power significantly until you have the tail firmly on the ground.
Don Luscombe anticipated the problem and built the spar with extensions that are readily replaced if damaged in a groundloop.
Last year I was no 2 to another Luscombe flying in to Yeovilton Air Day with a tricky crosswind. Watching the one in front of you groundloop and depart the runway sure makes you concentrate!
If you want to try that trick again I'd suggest not reducing the power significantly until you have the tail firmly on the ground.
Don Luscombe anticipated the problem and built the spar with extensions that are readily replaced if damaged in a groundloop.
Last year I was no 2 to another Luscombe flying in to Yeovilton Air Day with a tricky crosswind. Watching the one in front of you groundloop and depart the runway sure makes you concentrate!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kent UK
Age: 70
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys, thanks for your input and I'm sorry I've ben late getting back to you - was doing a late gig.
@ Pace and RTN11, yes, the wind was only a couple of knots and it eventually died altogether. And the purpose of the runs was to get used to fast tail-up work without commiting to the air.
I must say, that if I habitually do 3-pointers (as I do) I can't really see the situation wherein I'd be needing to lower the tail from rolling run, except in an abandoned take-off. (In which case it should maybe be practised as part of an emergency scenario.) However, this guy (you're right, he's not an instructor) has been flying this 8E for about 9 or 10 years, and it appears to be the way in which checkouts on this machine are undertaken. FWIW there is a 'CFI' in the syndicate who's a CAA examiner, but I haven't met him yet.
Silvaire, I was wearing shoes with wide, thick soles - never again! I'll never forget jabbing away at thin air, my feet catching on odd projections that might have been rudder, brake, interior trim......boy, am I going to get that sorted! I thought about using rudder with my feet poised - heels off the floor - but with full rudder you can't reach the brake! Too far back.
I'll get used to it.
@ Pace and RTN11, yes, the wind was only a couple of knots and it eventually died altogether. And the purpose of the runs was to get used to fast tail-up work without commiting to the air.
I must say, that if I habitually do 3-pointers (as I do) I can't really see the situation wherein I'd be needing to lower the tail from rolling run, except in an abandoned take-off. (In which case it should maybe be practised as part of an emergency scenario.) However, this guy (you're right, he's not an instructor) has been flying this 8E for about 9 or 10 years, and it appears to be the way in which checkouts on this machine are undertaken. FWIW there is a 'CFI' in the syndicate who's a CAA examiner, but I haven't met him yet.
Silvaire, I was wearing shoes with wide, thick soles - never again! I'll never forget jabbing away at thin air, my feet catching on odd projections that might have been rudder, brake, interior trim......boy, am I going to get that sorted! I thought about using rudder with my feet poised - heels off the floor - but with full rudder you can't reach the brake! Too far back.
I'll get used to it.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was assuming it was a taxy and not full take-off power. Mine (8E) requires 60mph solo and 65mph (dual) to get airborne. Any less and the tailwheel will be on the ground before you can get enough AoA to become airborne. If you are substantially below 60mph, (which I'd assumed you were) then there's no danger of getting airborne by lowering the tail before reducing power.
You'll get used to the heel brakes although there will still be times when you fumble for them. The trick is not to let the fumbling with your feet communicate itself to the rudder pedals or your hands.
If you haven't already done so visit European Luscombes
Nigel Barrett, who posts on there as Nige is the best Luscombe pilot I know and will be happy to assist you. Also come and join in at the Rally at Oaksey Park 5/6/7 Aug to meet lots of other owners.
You'll get used to the heel brakes although there will still be times when you fumble for them. The trick is not to let the fumbling with your feet communicate itself to the rudder pedals or your hands.
If you haven't already done so visit European Luscombes
Nigel Barrett, who posts on there as Nige is the best Luscombe pilot I know and will be happy to assist you. Also come and join in at the Rally at Oaksey Park 5/6/7 Aug to meet lots of other owners.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To answer Pace's point yes - given a significant slope the tailwind is much less of a problem.
If all airfields were on the top of nice round hills the world would be a much better (and more interesting!) place. Landing up a hill with a tailwind is straight forward because the aircraft loses speed so quickly - so that transitiion speed where there is little airflow over the rudder lasts for virtually no time - so if the aircraft is running straight it will continue doing so.
However taxiing tail up in a tailwind leaves the aircraft quite a period of time from closing the throttle to getting back to a walking pace for it to wander off course. Then you only have the brakes - which may or may not work - to keep you straight. The effect is much worst on tarmac due to the lower rolling friction as I have demonstrated at one or two InterGalatic Spaceports where making the active runway the into wind one seems too hard.
With good (reliable) brakes and an effective rudder there is little issue. My limited experience of Luscombes would suggest they usually do not have both.
If all airfields were on the top of nice round hills the world would be a much better (and more interesting!) place. Landing up a hill with a tailwind is straight forward because the aircraft loses speed so quickly - so that transitiion speed where there is little airflow over the rudder lasts for virtually no time - so if the aircraft is running straight it will continue doing so.
However taxiing tail up in a tailwind leaves the aircraft quite a period of time from closing the throttle to getting back to a walking pace for it to wander off course. Then you only have the brakes - which may or may not work - to keep you straight. The effect is much worst on tarmac due to the lower rolling friction as I have demonstrated at one or two InterGalatic Spaceports where making the active runway the into wind one seems too hard.
With good (reliable) brakes and an effective rudder there is little issue. My limited experience of Luscombes would suggest they usually do not have both.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kent UK
Age: 70
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Getting the hang
The other day, wearing a pair of narrow, thin-soled shoes, I let myself in through the farm gate, unlocked the hangar (how sweet it is to be a share-owner at last!) and climbed into the Luscombe. I then spent the next twenty minutes planting my feet around the pedals and operating them. I imagined swing this way and that and corrected. I got my feet used to the asymetric feel. I tried getting right toe on left pedal and vice versa but without turning on my side I just couldn't do it. But I could get get right heel on left pedal which I worked with for a bit. But with all thing considered, I plumped for conventional use. The shoes I used are quite a stylish pair with an extended toe, and I found that with full right rudder my foot jammed between the floor and a protrusion from the firewall, and I had to wriggle to free it. Not good! Back to the drawing board.
So, yesterday, with yet another pair of thin-soled shoes, I had a check flight for circuits (no more fast runs!) and things went much better. I think shortcomings in my landings could be put down to pure lack of currency; the pedal work was more intuitive than before and I felt pleased to have put in the ground practice. My heels were off the floor for the take-off roll and the first part of the landing run - I was on my toes, literally! - and I was sure to check the slightest drift of the cowling in front of me. My heels came down and found the brakes which worked with just the right amount of pressure, with no tendency to snatch. That was a worry because the vertical plane of the pedal makes about a 45-degree angle to your heel and there is quite a 'bite' to push it forward; and it goes in a rush as your heel settles behind it.
All in all, a much better day.
So, yesterday, with yet another pair of thin-soled shoes, I had a check flight for circuits (no more fast runs!) and things went much better. I think shortcomings in my landings could be put down to pure lack of currency; the pedal work was more intuitive than before and I felt pleased to have put in the ground practice. My heels were off the floor for the take-off roll and the first part of the landing run - I was on my toes, literally! - and I was sure to check the slightest drift of the cowling in front of me. My heels came down and found the brakes which worked with just the right amount of pressure, with no tendency to snatch. That was a worry because the vertical plane of the pedal makes about a 45-degree angle to your heel and there is quite a 'bite' to push it forward; and it goes in a rush as your heel settles behind it.
All in all, a much better day.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I learned a similar lesson about footwear the hard way in a twitchy taildragger during winter by one day wearing flying boots (RAF type) and thick socks (have no heater so trying to stay warm!)
I couldnt feel a flipping thing through the pedals and both the take-off and landing were shocking zig-zaggy affairs, I now fly with as thin soled shoes as I can get away with, deck shoes or similar work well and you get a much better 'feel' of whats going on.
I couldnt feel a flipping thing through the pedals and both the take-off and landing were shocking zig-zaggy affairs, I now fly with as thin soled shoes as I can get away with, deck shoes or similar work well and you get a much better 'feel' of whats going on.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LOL, the Luscombe, the only aircraft I have taught in that would ground loop tied down in the hangar!
brings back memories of checking someone out in a 120 a couple of years ago who assured me that they were a current tailwheel pilot having done the conversion in a CAP10 at Lakeland in FL. Sitting in the corn balanced on the nose with fuel running down my ear indicated that he might have been less than accurate in stating his experience. Having landed and then stood on the brakes and no amount of shouting from me was going to get them released. Fortunatly the engine stalled as the ground loop started and no damage done other than to pride.....
brings back memories of checking someone out in a 120 a couple of years ago who assured me that they were a current tailwheel pilot having done the conversion in a CAP10 at Lakeland in FL. Sitting in the corn balanced on the nose with fuel running down my ear indicated that he might have been less than accurate in stating his experience. Having landed and then stood on the brakes and no amount of shouting from me was going to get them released. Fortunatly the engine stalled as the ground loop started and no damage done other than to pride.....
