Four people in a Warrior II?
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Four people in a Warrior II?
Greetings all.
Has anybody flown a PA28 161 with three passengers? It has four places but i've only ever taken up two pax.
That was with a full fuel load and I wondered if anyone had done any trips with four passengers & less fuel, and if so what's the t/o and landing performance like?
W&B for the a/c i'm hiring shows that technically it should be doable, but i'm a relavtively new PPL and would welcome advice from older hands.
cheers
Has anybody flown a PA28 161 with three passengers? It has four places but i've only ever taken up two pax.
That was with a full fuel load and I wondered if anyone had done any trips with four passengers & less fuel, and if so what's the t/o and landing performance like?
W&B for the a/c i'm hiring shows that technically it should be doable, but i'm a relavtively new PPL and would welcome advice from older hands.
cheers
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If the numbers in the book are good then it can be done but expect the performance to be down on what you normaly expect.
I have flown four people in the PA28-161 but it did not have much fuel. I have also sat in the back of a PA28-161 that had been mistakenly overfilled with fuel and am lucky to still be alive after that inccident!
I have flown four people in the PA28-161 but it did not have much fuel. I have also sat in the back of a PA28-161 that had been mistakenly overfilled with fuel and am lucky to still be alive after that inccident!
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As a rough guide for the PA28-161: With four "average" adults you can fill to the bottom of the tabs. With three "average" adults you can fly with full fuel.
If your adults are heavier than average, well, you know how to do a proper W&B, not?
As far as flying is concerned, not a lot of difference. Make sure you fly the POH numbers to get best performance. Don't approach too steep as you will need a more pronounced flare to cushion your descent.
You might also want to discuss the evacuation plan beforehand.
If your adults are heavier than average, well, you know how to do a proper W&B, not?
As far as flying is concerned, not a lot of difference. Make sure you fly the POH numbers to get best performance. Don't approach too steep as you will need a more pronounced flare to cushion your descent.
You might also want to discuss the evacuation plan beforehand.
3 large people in a Warrior and full fuel is not far off max AUW so 4 people and a bit less fuel will not be noticeably different, just make sure you do the W&B. Performance on grass and in high temperatures will be noticeably longer, and you may find the trim on approach slightly different.
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With 4 POB there is a very high chance of a PA28-161 being well over MTOW. People tend to weigh more than they say (especially women), and an old plane with an old engine may not make book figures for the takeoff roll.
You mean, not sit the 200kg person next to the only door 
You might also want to discuss the evacuation plan beforehand.
Why is it that I suspect IO540 and I are the only people who have actually done PA28 W&CG with real occupant weights.
I'd label 4 adults in -161 nearly impossible.
A PA28-161 at MTOW is a perfectly safe and flyable aeroplane, just keep it in limits.
G
I'd label 4 adults in -161 nearly impossible.
A PA28-161 at MTOW is a perfectly safe and flyable aeroplane, just keep it in limits.
G
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I reckon that it would be an exaggeration to say that with 4 adults in a Warrior, you would have to fly on fumes, with no luggage and stark naked - but it would be uncomfortably close to the truth.
The useful load of most PA28-161's is somewhere between 830lbs and 875lbs.
Some had a MAUW of 2325lbs, others were 2440lbs. As ever, read the POH for the individual aircraft and work the W&B calculation carefully, as there is no 'one size fits all' approach to this, I'm afraid.
The useful load of most PA28-161's is somewhere between 830lbs and 875lbs.
Some had a MAUW of 2325lbs, others were 2440lbs. As ever, read the POH for the individual aircraft and work the W&B calculation carefully, as there is no 'one size fits all' approach to this, I'm afraid.
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C of G is more critical! If you know about ferry work with the aircraft tanked the weight would make most PPLs gasp.
If the runway and temps are good it is surprising what weight the aircraft will carry.
I am not for one second recommending O/W takeoffs for a start you would be flying out of the manual performance graphs and your insurance would be void.
One thing I find quite amusing is how flight schools will pack an overweight instructor and student into a C152 with full fuel and regulary ignore the weight limitations on the aircraft.
Pace
If the runway and temps are good it is surprising what weight the aircraft will carry.
I am not for one second recommending O/W takeoffs for a start you would be flying out of the manual performance graphs and your insurance would be void.
One thing I find quite amusing is how flight schools will pack an overweight instructor and student into a C152 with full fuel and regulary ignore the weight limitations on the aircraft.
Pace
Hello Monkey Scribbler,
PA28-161 is my regular mount. I don't have my kneeboard with the performance and WB charts with me but I can say that at the grass airfield where I fly (UK so not high altitude and usually cold), we have a 1000m and an 800m runway. Three-up I only ever use the 1000m runway for departure and never fill above tabs. I think the book says I could squeeze-in more fuel and be just about OK for field length but I don't like the idea of just about (and neither does the club that owns the aeroplane!). I did calculate recently that we would be OK for WB three-up with full fuel but only with more grass TODA or a hard surfaced runway. The difference between tabs and full is (IIRC) about 40 litres or (off the top of my head) about 70lb so four-up with fuel at tabs sounds illegal to me.
On your own it is different, I was very pleased with myself solo recently at getting it into 600m of grass and stopping with less than 400m used (I'm low hours as well, I'm sure the sky gods can do better!). Mind you, there was a lot of cross-wind and it took me two go-arounds to achieve!
PA28-161 is my regular mount. I don't have my kneeboard with the performance and WB charts with me but I can say that at the grass airfield where I fly (UK so not high altitude and usually cold), we have a 1000m and an 800m runway. Three-up I only ever use the 1000m runway for departure and never fill above tabs. I think the book says I could squeeze-in more fuel and be just about OK for field length but I don't like the idea of just about (and neither does the club that owns the aeroplane!). I did calculate recently that we would be OK for WB three-up with full fuel but only with more grass TODA or a hard surfaced runway. The difference between tabs and full is (IIRC) about 40 litres or (off the top of my head) about 70lb so four-up with fuel at tabs sounds illegal to me.
On your own it is different, I was very pleased with myself solo recently at getting it into 600m of grass and stopping with less than 400m used (I'm low hours as well, I'm sure the sky gods can do better!). Mind you, there was a lot of cross-wind and it took me two go-arounds to achieve!
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Just did the sample calculation for one of our PA28s. It's a PA28-161 Cadet.
Empty weight 1465 lbs
Four FAA standard adults 4x170 = 680 lbs
30 USG fuel = 180 lbs
Total weight = 2325 lbs
Max weight = 2332 lbs. 7 lbs left over, and this situation is well within the CofG envelope. 30 USG is about 3.5 hours till empty tanks.
Filling to the tabs is actually 34 USG, formally, but I doubt whether anyone can fill to those tabs with +/- 1 USG accuracy. But anyway, with 34 USG fuel you will be 13 lbs overweight.
For a PA28-161 Warrior III (IFR equipped, empty weight 1567 lbs, max weight 2440) the numbers work out the same.
Of course, this all requires that your occupants are FAA average weights (170 lbs = 77 kg).
Empty weight 1465 lbs
Four FAA standard adults 4x170 = 680 lbs
30 USG fuel = 180 lbs
Total weight = 2325 lbs
Max weight = 2332 lbs. 7 lbs left over, and this situation is well within the CofG envelope. 30 USG is about 3.5 hours till empty tanks.
Filling to the tabs is actually 34 USG, formally, but I doubt whether anyone can fill to those tabs with +/- 1 USG accuracy. But anyway, with 34 USG fuel you will be 13 lbs overweight.
For a PA28-161 Warrior III (IFR equipped, empty weight 1567 lbs, max weight 2440) the numbers work out the same.
Of course, this all requires that your occupants are FAA average weights (170 lbs = 77 kg).
What you will find is, with more weight in the back seats the c of g is further back and you may find the stabilator response in the flare different to what you are used to and you may find yourself overcontrolling. Not a huge difference but forewarned is forearmed.
Of course, this all requires that your occupants are FAA average weights (170 lbs = 77 kg).
PA28s do seem to vary in empty CG quite a lot, I've seen aircraft easy to get out of forward, and others uncomfortably close to aft.
G
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I'm also a low hours PA28 PPL.
I've flown 3 up in a Warrior on a club trip to France. We did the W&B calcs and I recall filled up to tabs. From memory there wasn't a problem and although we did mainly straight and level flight, I didn't notice a radical change in aircraft handling. Wouldn't have wanted to try this with more fuel - now that Le Touquet doesn't have any over the summer, this would affect plans significantly.
I've also taken the family (ie 3 pax) up a couple of times. So not being 200lb each, the W&B calcs show this being within limits if fuel is at tabs. Here I did notice a longer ground roll on takeoff and landing, but pleased to say the occupants didn't think the arrival was too harsh - someone told me once to keep a bit of throttle on all the way to touchdown, but I guess that's where you have plenty of runway ahead.
So my suggestion is to do the W&B calcs as taught (including runway distance required) and you should be OK.
I've flown 3 up in a Warrior on a club trip to France. We did the W&B calcs and I recall filled up to tabs. From memory there wasn't a problem and although we did mainly straight and level flight, I didn't notice a radical change in aircraft handling. Wouldn't have wanted to try this with more fuel - now that Le Touquet doesn't have any over the summer, this would affect plans significantly.
I've also taken the family (ie 3 pax) up a couple of times. So not being 200lb each, the W&B calcs show this being within limits if fuel is at tabs. Here I did notice a longer ground roll on takeoff and landing, but pleased to say the occupants didn't think the arrival was too harsh - someone told me once to keep a bit of throttle on all the way to touchdown, but I guess that's where you have plenty of runway ahead.
So my suggestion is to do the W&B calcs as taught (including runway distance required) and you should be OK.
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you would have to fly on fumes, with no luggage and stark naked - but it would be uncomfortably close to the truth.
(depending on the passengers, and the fumes)
Well; as it so happens, I have just sold my beloved PA28-161.
With 47 years of professional aviation behind me, I took the W&B in my PA-28 very seriously.
My family and I could just make it to the Westminster in Le Touquet for the weekend with the fuel on tabs. That is, four of us.
Baggage was not really tolerated because my youngest son is disabled and so his wheelchair had to come also.
For those of you who are interested in wheelchairs, the Invacare went into the baggage compartment with about one inch to spare having taken the wheels off.
We had many happy weekends in LTQ.
With 47 years of professional aviation behind me, I took the W&B in my PA-28 very seriously.
My family and I could just make it to the Westminster in Le Touquet for the weekend with the fuel on tabs. That is, four of us.
Baggage was not really tolerated because my youngest son is disabled and so his wheelchair had to come also.
For those of you who are interested in wheelchairs, the Invacare went into the baggage compartment with about one inch to spare having taken the wheels off.
We had many happy weekends in LTQ.
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Was that 4 adults, or two adults plus two children? My experience of gliding - in which some clubs do get people to stand on the scales is that a healthy UK average is about 182lbs for a fully clothed man and 156lbs for a fully clothed woman. This will just about get within the limits on most PA28-161,
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re-fuelling
Sunny day in Wiltshire
"Wouldn't have wanted to try this with more fuel - now that Le Touquet doesn't have any over the summer, this would affect plans significantly."
There are other airfields in France beside LFAT you know!
Braden your horizons.
"Wouldn't have wanted to try this with more fuel - now that Le Touquet doesn't have any over the summer, this would affect plans significantly."
There are other airfields in France beside LFAT you know!
Braden your horizons.
Last edited by gyrotyro; 7th Jul 2011 at 17:29.
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Ok just to broaden the subject with a bit of stirring. How many pilots rather have fuel and takeoff overweight? What is overweight? 1 ib over 2ibs over 50 ibs over?
How often do you see the club 150 training aircraft load in a 14 stone instructor and a 16 stone student? I have seen it many times.
How many times have you fueled up away from home only to find your payload back has increased??
Have you defueled the aircraft or gone up and burnt fuel off or just gone?
Are you all really so to the book as portrayed in this thread?
Ferry aircraft take off hundreds of pounds overweight.
As long as the C of G is good and the runway long enough they dont mind.
Dont get me wrong as I am not condoning overweight takeoffs but what I read in this thread doesnt match what I often see in the field (I dont mean literally
That isnt pilots running around doing detailed W and B calcs armed with scales but probably more knowing what their aircraft will do or not do?
addendum thought the average person weight had now increased to 200 ibs?
Another question? On a long runway would you rather takeoff slightly overweight but in C of G with more fuel at destination or at correct weight but just on required fuel at destination? Pace
How often do you see the club 150 training aircraft load in a 14 stone instructor and a 16 stone student? I have seen it many times.
How many times have you fueled up away from home only to find your payload back has increased??
Have you defueled the aircraft or gone up and burnt fuel off or just gone?
Are you all really so to the book as portrayed in this thread?
Ferry aircraft take off hundreds of pounds overweight.
As long as the C of G is good and the runway long enough they dont mind.
Dont get me wrong as I am not condoning overweight takeoffs but what I read in this thread doesnt match what I often see in the field (I dont mean literally
That isnt pilots running around doing detailed W and B calcs armed with scales but probably more knowing what their aircraft will do or not do?
addendum thought the average person weight had now increased to 200 ibs?
Another question? On a long runway would you rather takeoff slightly overweight but in C of G with more fuel at destination or at correct weight but just on required fuel at destination? Pace
Last edited by Pace; 7th Jul 2011 at 18:25.
That's a provocating post, Pace, and I am curious to the upcoming replies. Being a long way off - 30 miles of water is a real physical barrier, if one's supposed to remain below controlled airspace - and playing in a different competition, anyway, I'll risk my neck by citing from a discussion among local microlight pilots - all operating 80 hp Rotax-powered two-seaters - "of all these planes of ours, not a single one is taking off below MTOW with two people on board". The admitted sin being covered by the strong statement that these same craft we fly at a certified MTOW of 450 kg are certified as LSA's in the US with a MTOW close to 600 kg.
Why worry?
Why worry?
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 7th Jul 2011 at 18:27.