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Blagger, you are absolutely right. There are many examples of thoughtless glider pilots intruding thoughtlessly in power circuits; as Leon J points out, both disciplines suffer from the undisciplined.
I blush to remember when I flew a glider on the upwind side of a parachute site during a competition; and had to apologise to the entire congregation at briefing the following morning. And got fined all the points for that day as well.
I blush to remember when I flew a glider on the upwind side of a parachute site during a competition; and had to apologise to the entire congregation at briefing the following morning. And got fined all the points for that day as well.
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Pete, good on you for wanting to try and reduce the nonsensical boundaries that seem to exist between powered and glider pilots. (Most of which do seem to come from the gliding side in my experience unfortunately.)
Genghis and others have mentioned the snobbish and elitist attitude that does prevail at certain (not all!) gliding clubs.
I remember once going along to visit a nearby gliding club when I was a fulltime instructor to try and build the relationship between the two clubs. I was treated appallingly, talked down to and eventually decided that it wasn't worth the effort.
I'm no idiot in an aircraft and yet talking to the people at that club, it seems that unless you were born in a glider, then you are an imbecile who has no right to call themselves a pilot.
I find it particularly amusing as I subsequently flew with many of the members of this club and most of them had some skill, but weren't what I would call different from the average, even after they'd had a more than a few hours.
If you can do something to open clubs and airfields up to the wider flying community, then that would be great.
Gliding is wonderful. I've been up many times and thoroughly enjoyed it, but this was in other countries that seem to be less anal about it. Gliding in the UK holds no appeal to me simply because of the attitudes that I have come across when making enquiries on both a professional and personal basis.
A glider is just an aircraft with a different method of propulsion. It's hardly a mythical beast that needs the dexterity of a concert painist, the brains of Einstein and the handling skill of Bob Hoover to master.
The principles of airmanship are common to all forms of aviation. Glider pilots don't have a greater ability or better airmanship than anyone else. In fact I've lost count of the number of times I've had problems with Glider pilots being where they shouldn't be or not doing nice things such as using a radio in a busy bit of airspace or ATZ and causing havoc. So it goes both ways.
So, could you convince some of the others in the gliding community to wind their necks in a wee bit please!
Genghis and others have mentioned the snobbish and elitist attitude that does prevail at certain (not all!) gliding clubs.
I remember once going along to visit a nearby gliding club when I was a fulltime instructor to try and build the relationship between the two clubs. I was treated appallingly, talked down to and eventually decided that it wasn't worth the effort.
I'm no idiot in an aircraft and yet talking to the people at that club, it seems that unless you were born in a glider, then you are an imbecile who has no right to call themselves a pilot.
I find it particularly amusing as I subsequently flew with many of the members of this club and most of them had some skill, but weren't what I would call different from the average, even after they'd had a more than a few hours.
If you can do something to open clubs and airfields up to the wider flying community, then that would be great.
Gliding is wonderful. I've been up many times and thoroughly enjoyed it, but this was in other countries that seem to be less anal about it. Gliding in the UK holds no appeal to me simply because of the attitudes that I have come across when making enquiries on both a professional and personal basis.
A glider is just an aircraft with a different method of propulsion. It's hardly a mythical beast that needs the dexterity of a concert painist, the brains of Einstein and the handling skill of Bob Hoover to master.
The principles of airmanship are common to all forms of aviation. Glider pilots don't have a greater ability or better airmanship than anyone else. In fact I've lost count of the number of times I've had problems with Glider pilots being where they shouldn't be or not doing nice things such as using a radio in a busy bit of airspace or ATZ and causing havoc. So it goes both ways.
So, could you convince some of the others in the gliding community to wind their necks in a wee bit please!
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Winhern, motorgliders are one of the most under-rated machines going. You can have fast touring speeds with low fuel burn, great weight lifting capacity and fun all in one aircraft. The Grob I fly cruises at 90kts easily, burns about 12lts per hour and can lift two 90kg bods with almost enough fuel for about 5+ hours flying! I'm amazed there isn't more interest in them.
I think the gliding community / BGA are missing such an opportunity with motorgliders. Sadly, most clubs see them as some hallowed machine that sits around until some inner-circle instructor member decides to use it for field landing training or suchlike. There are legions of power pilots that would queue up to fly a motorglider from a friendly airfield, with great social scene and members environment etc.. I reckon stacks of potential students would do their PPL training on motorgliders as well given the chance.
I think the gliding community / BGA are missing such an opportunity with motorgliders. Sadly, most clubs see them as some hallowed machine that sits around until some inner-circle instructor member decides to use it for field landing training or suchlike. There are legions of power pilots that would queue up to fly a motorglider from a friendly airfield, with great social scene and members environment etc.. I reckon stacks of potential students would do their PPL training on motorgliders as well given the chance.
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In answer to Pete Stratten's original query I think I have the, or at least an, answer (I initiated the other thread). I've put a package together- see new thread http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/456376-gliding-package-ppls-ridgewell-essex-suffolk-border.html#post6550755.
If this wouldn't work for you (done locally, of course), tell Pete what's wrong with it.
If this wouldn't work for you (done locally, of course), tell Pete what's wrong with it.
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My local gliding club had a fly / in open day this weekend so I went along to give it a try and very much enjoyed it.
It seemed to me that there was a bit of leg pulling about being a powered pilot and not being able to use our feet etc etc but other than that everyone was very friendly and I intend going back to try to progress as quickly as possible to solo.
Flying the glider itself didnt seem very demanding at all, bit of a lethargic thing if I'm honest and required far less footwork than flying a high performance taildragger though I understand that this isnt where the real skill in gliding lies.
Looking forward to getting stuck in properly !
Regards
UA
It seemed to me that there was a bit of leg pulling about being a powered pilot and not being able to use our feet etc etc but other than that everyone was very friendly and I intend going back to try to progress as quickly as possible to solo.
Flying the glider itself didnt seem very demanding at all, bit of a lethargic thing if I'm honest and required far less footwork than flying a high performance taildragger though I understand that this isnt where the real skill in gliding lies.
Looking forward to getting stuck in properly !
Regards
UA
Why do gliding clubs have airfield frequencies if they never bother manning them? I spent a summer gliding at one club, and was amazed at the attitude to the radio; they hardly seemed to know it existed. With a lot of other airfields around the location, and plenty of passing traffic, it seems to me simple courtesy to put in the small effort of using a radio.
After all, you can't complain that powered pilots aren't safe enough with one breath while blustering about not needing the added safety of radios with the next.
After all, you can't complain that powered pilots aren't safe enough with one breath while blustering about not needing the added safety of radios with the next.
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Having started out in gliders and moved over to power once finances allowed, I can see both side of the argument. I'm not a team player so gliding isn't for me, though I have my fondest flying memories from flying gliders. I do miss the challenge of soaring but I don't miss the avaerage day which consisted of the pushing gliders about, getting looked down on becuase of being a youngster with low experience, etc etc.
I would love the challenge of soaring again and would love to do it in a motor glider so as to not have to wait around all day for a 5 minute flight from a winch launch.
In fact, I have been know to throttle back my current plane until its sink rate is similar to a mediocre glider and then go thermalling until the CHTs start to drop below minimums, at which point its time to think of something else to entertain myself.
I would love the challenge of soaring again and would love to do it in a motor glider so as to not have to wait around all day for a 5 minute flight from a winch launch.
In fact, I have been know to throttle back my current plane until its sink rate is similar to a mediocre glider and then go thermalling until the CHTs start to drop below minimums, at which point its time to think of something else to entertain myself.
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It seemed to me that there was a bit of leg pulling about being a powered pilot and not being able to use our feet etc etc but other than that everyone was very friendly and I intend going back to try to progress as quickly as possible to solo.
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Why do gliding clubs have airfield frequencies if they never bother manning them?
PPS Hinton manages to keep free-fall para, gliding and powered flying apart from each other, Halton with powered and gliding and also Gamston with powered and gliding - as long as you all have a good understanding of each others needs and procedures then all can work quite nicely.
Having recently gone over to 'dirty' flying as well as gliding I can see things from both sides now, cue Joni Mitchell, and all I can say is they are two different disciplines and each brings something different to the plate of the pilot. Having been brought up on the 'hanging around all day' gliding club scene I still think it's pretty amazing that you can just turn up and fly powered and then go home. It's really novel to me.
I like doing them both, they do both have a completely different culture but as long as you accept that and don't try and compare then you should have no problem. By the way, even as a glider pilot I've been to some pretty snotty gliding clubs as well. I haven't been to an unfriendly powered field yet but I'm sure they must be around.
Last edited by thing; 4th Jul 2011 at 21:51.
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A few years back I booked a trial flight at Lasham. The instructor (a fireman) was superb and the flying was magic. I was completely hooked.
I went back a few times but on each occasion the weather wasn't great and no-one was flying.
When the weather finally sorted itself out, I drove down there and got stuck in, helping retrieve and connect the winch. I didn't mind doing it because I had been told that gliding was a club activity, and you needed to get involved if you wanted to be involved. And I definitely wanted to be involved. Near the end of the day a family pitched up, took all the slots, and I didn't get to fly. I didn't understand why, and I drove home that evening pretty pissed off.
I tried it once more, but the same thing happened. I noticed that there were people sitting around waiting, not doing anything, yet still flying club aircraft, whilst I helped out and got nothing except thanks, which was OK, but no substitute for being in the air.
I realised that if I wanted to be in the sky I couldn't rely on these people, because, as much as everyone will tell you that gliding is a club activity, they were really there to fly, not watch other people fly. So I sacked it off and went and did my PPL at White Waltham. I found out about the LAA, and when I had completed my license, I bought a permit aircraft which I now keep on a strip up the road from my home.
I'll admit I don't enjoy the powered plane as much as I did the gliding, but it allows me to do my own thing whenever I like, which is brilliant. I put the (non) gliding experience down to being part of the journey.
I went back a few times but on each occasion the weather wasn't great and no-one was flying.
When the weather finally sorted itself out, I drove down there and got stuck in, helping retrieve and connect the winch. I didn't mind doing it because I had been told that gliding was a club activity, and you needed to get involved if you wanted to be involved. And I definitely wanted to be involved. Near the end of the day a family pitched up, took all the slots, and I didn't get to fly. I didn't understand why, and I drove home that evening pretty pissed off.
I tried it once more, but the same thing happened. I noticed that there were people sitting around waiting, not doing anything, yet still flying club aircraft, whilst I helped out and got nothing except thanks, which was OK, but no substitute for being in the air.
I realised that if I wanted to be in the sky I couldn't rely on these people, because, as much as everyone will tell you that gliding is a club activity, they were really there to fly, not watch other people fly. So I sacked it off and went and did my PPL at White Waltham. I found out about the LAA, and when I had completed my license, I bought a permit aircraft which I now keep on a strip up the road from my home.
I'll admit I don't enjoy the powered plane as much as I did the gliding, but it allows me to do my own thing whenever I like, which is brilliant. I put the (non) gliding experience down to being part of the journey.
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Well, it's all part of life's rich tapestry. Flying a glider gives you a quality of experience that simply does not exist in the other camp. And flying light aircraft is also good fun, and the regimen is very good for those who enjoy private flying and can afford the petrol. As others have mentioned, motor gliders are a compromise between the two sports, worth seeking out your local motor gliding school. There is room for all types in the sky, just keep on keeping a good lookout!
I phoned Nympsfield today because I am looking for a landing site near Stroud. Although they appear in the Lockyears Farm guide and quote a landing fee they do not allow powered aircraft in unless on gliding business apparently.
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I phoned Nympsfield today because I am looking for a landing site near Stroud. Although they appear in the Lockyears Farm guide and quote a landing fee they do not allow powered aircraft in unless on gliding business apparently.
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Nympsfield would have been interesting if you are used to runways. It's a nice, big expanse of grass but distinctly up and downy! A/c in the first and sceond dips aren't visible from the launchpoint, to give you some idea.
Planning permission is often the big issue - my airfield (Ridgewell) is no power other than tugging, and a former club was restricted to about a dozen non-tugging movements each year.
Planning permission is often the big issue - my airfield (Ridgewell) is no power other than tugging, and a former club was restricted to about a dozen non-tugging movements each year.
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Nympsfield can present problems to the unwary. Big time curlover from that splendid ridge, tall trees on one approach, power lines, and lurking nearby, at least one wind generator, as I recall.
My favourite was watching a glider do a competition finish at Nympsfield, swooping low along the field at high speed, pulling up to go around on the circuit...and got caught in the curlover, had to land out in the valley below. Oh yes!
My favourite was watching a glider do a competition finish at Nympsfield, swooping low along the field at high speed, pulling up to go around on the circuit...and got caught in the curlover, had to land out in the valley below. Oh yes!
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Thanks so far...
Thanks for the info - very helpful, particularly when the thread stays on track!
I'll monitor the helpful feedback for a bit longer before taking the info away to carefully consider the detail.
Pete
I'll monitor the helpful feedback for a bit longer before taking the info away to carefully consider the detail.
Pete
