VFR Wycombe to Shoreham
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VFR Wycombe to Shoreham
Hello guys,
I've just got my PPL and am planning a Trip from Denham via Wycombe and Farnborough to Shoreham.
As Blackbushe and Farnborough are quite close and I plan to fly overhead them both. How can you get two calls in without already being overhead the other. Does 1 cater for both?. Im aware that FB do the Odiham MATZ part.
If anyone can offer some of their experience to crossing this area it would be great.
I've just got my PPL and am planning a Trip from Denham via Wycombe and Farnborough to Shoreham.
As Blackbushe and Farnborough are quite close and I plan to fly overhead them both. How can you get two calls in without already being overhead the other. Does 1 cater for both?. Im aware that FB do the Odiham MATZ part.
If anyone can offer some of their experience to crossing this area it would be great.
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If I recall correctly, you can stay above the ATZ's, but below heathrow, (based on a wycombe-goodwood trip). Just remember the ATZ is above ground level, and as Genghis says, talk to farnborough radar all the way down. Rather doubt you'd be welcome in heathrow's space, stay outside / below the steps
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Yes but its all a bit tight around there and there is the heathrow CTR how would you advise doing that?
There is a very good DVD from NATS called VFR Around the London TMA which has most of these tricks and routes for reference, it shows both the planning and the flight. Well worth getting hold of a copy.
This isn't a route I've done but I took interest because I like these little planning nightmares and checked up what the DVD had to say.
So what you have:
If you have DME you can set it to the London TDME - if it reads greater than 12.5 DME - your not in the the CTR so that will take care of that worry.
Around Farnborough your in a box that steps up to 3500' so not too tight, just be aware that it steps back down to 2500' and you also have a couple of danger areas to consider.
The DVD approach to the problem (and lets face it there is more than one way I'm sure) is to skirt the edge of Blackbushe's ATZ (so no need to talk to them) by keeping the railway line from Wokingham on your right and then fly over Farnborough to keep out of their instrument approaches which is preferable to flying through them. They may well let you transit through the ATZ if you ask nicely, in which case no need to climb above the ATZ - which however is still an option if they can't clear you through for some reason.
I would be pretty happy to go along with that, perhaps others will blow holes in it but it seems a pretty sound approach to it without the aid of a GPS.
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If your navigation is less than great, definitely talk to Farnborough the whole time.
They are really good, and if you mess up, they will quickly advise you.
They have always let me fly straight over the top of their runway, at 2400ft or something like that.
Of course, nothing beats a decent GPS
They are really good, and if you mess up, they will quickly advise you.
They have always let me fly straight over the top of their runway, at 2400ft or something like that.
Of course, nothing beats a decent GPS
Jugs08
As soon as you are able, buy yourself a quality hand held GPS if not fitted to your aircraft.(and some good tuition on its use)
The area you are traversing is a very busy piece of airspace as you have noticed. Navigating soley by map reading is of course possible, but in all but perfect VMC the addition of GPS to your map reading frees you up to concentrate more on lookout and RT procedures etc.
Despite what you may hear from the 'map and stopwatch only brigade', a GPS is indispensable in this crowded airspace and adds to the safety of you, and your fellow aviators.
The area you are traversing is a very busy piece of airspace as you have noticed. Navigating soley by map reading is of course possible, but in all but perfect VMC the addition of GPS to your map reading frees you up to concentrate more on lookout and RT procedures etc.
Despite what you may hear from the 'map and stopwatch only brigade', a GPS is indispensable in this crowded airspace and adds to the safety of you, and your fellow aviators.
The GPS is not indispensable, but it does lower your workload and screw-up rate a lot. Personally I'm currently using a yoke mounted Garmin Aera 500 which does the job very well.
Also, don't be afraid to take a wider longer route - you'll be surprised how little this actually adds to your flying time, whilst adding a lot to your comfort levels.
And don't let the ded-reckoning skills die, however useful a GPS is, they'll get you out of trouble one day.
Also don't be afraid to be realistic and fly IFR:"I Follow Roads/Railways/Rivers".
G
Also, don't be afraid to take a wider longer route - you'll be surprised how little this actually adds to your flying time, whilst adding a lot to your comfort levels.
And don't let the ded-reckoning skills die, however useful a GPS is, they'll get you out of trouble one day.
Also don't be afraid to be realistic and fly IFR:"I Follow Roads/Railways/Rivers".
G
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It looks as though Denham - Wycombe could be the interesting part of the route. As Denham is in the London CTR perhaps a Special VFR Clearance from Heathrow westbound to Wycombe?
The Wycombe zone digs into the London TMA (2500 QNH+) to the south, but I assume Heathrow would help with that (keep an eye open for gliding activities at Wycombe).
It might be useful to use 2400 QNH as an altitude south of Wycombe - it keeps you below the London TMA @ 2500 QNH, above the White Waltham / Blackbushe and Farnborough zones (just), and below the Gatwick TMA @ 2500 QNH.
Farnborough LARS are the guys to talk to south of Wycombe and they give a great service - they might get a bit twitchy with your 2400 altitude, though.
South of Dunsfold watch out for gliding activities out of Parham.
The Wycombe zone digs into the London TMA (2500 QNH+) to the south, but I assume Heathrow would help with that (keep an eye open for gliding activities at Wycombe).
It might be useful to use 2400 QNH as an altitude south of Wycombe - it keeps you below the London TMA @ 2500 QNH, above the White Waltham / Blackbushe and Farnborough zones (just), and below the Gatwick TMA @ 2500 QNH.
Farnborough LARS are the guys to talk to south of Wycombe and they give a great service - they might get a bit twitchy with your 2400 altitude, though.
South of Dunsfold watch out for gliding activities out of Parham.
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Jugs08
Congratulation to your PPL.
You have 3 choices at Wycombe:
1. Between London and Wycombe via Marlow. Talk to Farnborough West, fly to Amersham and stay glued to the BNN 225 radial. Only do this if you feel confident with your navigation.
2. Between Wycombe and Benson Via Stokenchurch. More space and less demanding than Marlow.
3. Overhead Wycombe. I have never done this, but if you are ok to talk to Wycombe before Farnborough you will probably get a transit (if they don't have a glider competition).
When passing White Waltham be extra vigilant for traffic in and out from this airfield, since it can be quite busy at times.
If I where you I would not talk to or enter Blackbushe ATZ. Ask Farnborough for an overhead transit and route east of Blackbushe following the railway from Wokingham. Farnborough will most likely give you clearence for not below 2400' and slightly east of the airfield. This is technically outside their ATZ but they really appreciate if you don't treat it like that.
Congratulation to your PPL.
You have 3 choices at Wycombe:
1. Between London and Wycombe via Marlow. Talk to Farnborough West, fly to Amersham and stay glued to the BNN 225 radial. Only do this if you feel confident with your navigation.
2. Between Wycombe and Benson Via Stokenchurch. More space and less demanding than Marlow.
3. Overhead Wycombe. I have never done this, but if you are ok to talk to Wycombe before Farnborough you will probably get a transit (if they don't have a glider competition).
When passing White Waltham be extra vigilant for traffic in and out from this airfield, since it can be quite busy at times.
If I where you I would not talk to or enter Blackbushe ATZ. Ask Farnborough for an overhead transit and route east of Blackbushe following the railway from Wokingham. Farnborough will most likely give you clearence for not below 2400' and slightly east of the airfield. This is technically outside their ATZ but they really appreciate if you don't treat it like that.
Last edited by Intercepted; 23rd Jun 2011 at 11:43.
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Intercepted
Is (1) Between Denham and Wycombe? (Rather than London and Wycombe).
I don't know Denham, but surely one has to talk to London at some stage, as it sits in the LHR zone?
Is (1) Between Denham and Wycombe? (Rather than London and Wycombe).
I don't know Denham, but surely one has to talk to London at some stage, as it sits in the LHR zone?
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I wouldn't suggest going for an SVFR transit of the LHR Class A zone (which would mean a rapid enroute re-plan if you don't get it) so Farnborough is fine.
The simplest thing for a new pilot is to stick to Class G.
The simplest thing for a new pilot is to stick to Class G.
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From within Denham ATZ you will not talk to London, only Denham ATIS. They have an agreement that enables aircraft to enter and leave via St Giles and Maple Cross VRPs. This takes you outside London Zone and you can route between wycombe ATZ and London Zone via Marlow.
Sorry If I wasn't clear. I never intended to suggest an SVFR clearance.
Sorry If I wasn't clear. I never intended to suggest an SVFR clearance.
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I'm very much a look-out-the-window, stopwatch-map-compass VFR kind of guy, but for crowded airspace like that, I definitely do want a GPS of some sort on board. Not just a waypoint-only GPS like the Garmin eTrex I use for a lot of trips, but a proper moving map GPS. Or two.
Currently that means an iPad with Airnav Pro, but I've also used an aircraft with a panel-mounted Garmin GNS430.
The Aware GPS would work too, as would anything that runs MemoryMap with the CAA charts.
Currently that means an iPad with Airnav Pro, but I've also used an aircraft with a panel-mounted Garmin GNS430.
The Aware GPS would work too, as would anything that runs MemoryMap with the CAA charts.
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My advice is to head for Wycombe's overhead and get a zone transit, as they are very helpful in the tower there. FYI you can't really transit above their ATZ without finding yourself in heathrow's zone although, technically, north west of r/w 24/06 Heathrows zone doesn't start until 3,500tf QNH - south of that the ceiling is 2,500ft QNH. With a field elevation of 520ftamsl, you have no margin for error.
Last edited by wsmempson; 25th Jun 2011 at 08:20. Reason: The curse of fat fingers
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With a field elevation of 450ft, you have a very narrow margin of error.
None at all with WAP's published elevation of 520' according to various sources including the AIP....
Hopefully there's a typo somewhere?
None at all with WAP's published elevation of 520' according to various sources including the AIP....
Hopefully there's a typo somewhere?
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In my experience Farnborough (through Farnborough Radar) have always been very helpful with the ATZ transit. Generally, they don't seem to mind about my height, just sometimes which side of the airfield I fly over, because of ILS traffic.
Edited to add: I was always squawking mode C, which probably explains their apparent lack of interest in my height.
Edited to add: I was always squawking mode C, which probably explains their apparent lack of interest in my height.
Last edited by 24Carrot; 23rd Jun 2011 at 16:14.
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You havent half picked oneof the most complex areas of UK airspace. As already said I would route wide and a moving map GPS with your planned route loaded would be very helpful in terms of staying out of trouble
If you havent already got it get your hands on a trial copy of Skydemon or other similar flight planning software. You can then plot all the various suggestions and review the horizontal and vertical navigation challenges.
I know someone who is selling a Garmin 296 + Flitestar VFR for £500. I can put you in touch if you're interested.
If you havent already got it get your hands on a trial copy of Skydemon or other similar flight planning software. You can then plot all the various suggestions and review the horizontal and vertical navigation challenges.
I know someone who is selling a Garmin 296 + Flitestar VFR for £500. I can put you in touch if you're interested.
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If I was flying that route, I'd go from Denham-Marlow, intercept and track a radial out of BNN to help navigate the gap, then track to the WOD NDB all at 2300ft then climb when able to 3300ft over Farnborough and fly a radial to the MID VOR, descend back to 2300ft-Shoreham - simples.
You can then just speak to Farnborough pretty much the whole way and you avoid Wycombe and White Waltham which can both be busy however you might just need to have a quick chat with Blackbushe in the climb to 3300 as you fly overhead, or route to the east but watch for the Danger area's that can go up to 2500ft. Plenty of nav aids if you don't have GPS to prevent you getting off course too.
Flying around London really isn't difficult and isn't anything to worry about as long as you can read the map properly.
You can then just speak to Farnborough pretty much the whole way and you avoid Wycombe and White Waltham which can both be busy however you might just need to have a quick chat with Blackbushe in the climb to 3300 as you fly overhead, or route to the east but watch for the Danger area's that can go up to 2500ft. Plenty of nav aids if you don't have GPS to prevent you getting off course too.
Flying around London really isn't difficult and isn't anything to worry about as long as you can read the map properly.