Single Engine - Coast out at Folkestone rather than Southampton - Over cautious?
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Single Engine - Coast out at Folkestone rather than Southampton - Over cautious?
Hi All,
I'm a low hours PPL but have spent a fair bit of time in the left seat of a heli in and around nearby europe, and am starting to get the itch to fly from UK midlands to south east Spain in something like an Arrow.
No matter how I look at it, I keep thinking it just seems way more sensible to take an extra hour ish and fly down to Folkestone first for the shortest sea crossing, and then head south down the coast of France towards Spain.
But some more experienced people I've spoken to think that's just over-cautious, and not necessary, and would instead take the more direct route over Southampton-ish.
I know the engine doesn't know it's over water, etc, etc but surely you're just clicking the risk levels up a couple of notches?
Thoughts?
I'm a low hours PPL but have spent a fair bit of time in the left seat of a heli in and around nearby europe, and am starting to get the itch to fly from UK midlands to south east Spain in something like an Arrow.
No matter how I look at it, I keep thinking it just seems way more sensible to take an extra hour ish and fly down to Folkestone first for the shortest sea crossing, and then head south down the coast of France towards Spain.
But some more experienced people I've spoken to think that's just over-cautious, and not necessary, and would instead take the more direct route over Southampton-ish.
I know the engine doesn't know it's over water, etc, etc but surely you're just clicking the risk levels up a couple of notches?
Thoughts?
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Seems a bit out of the way if you ask me. It might be even safer to take Easy Jet (and cheaper too)...each to their own but I have no problem with 50 miles of water in a SEP.
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I guess you could say you're clicking up the risk levels by getting into the aircraft in the first place but you take a calculated choice based on your experience of flying. If you believe that your risk level in an engine failure situation is increased whilst over water, then you have another calculated choice to take. Either accept that statistically the engine probably won't let go or reduce the risk by reducing the length of time you are over water. Another way to look at is to ask yourself what would you do if you had a close relative with you?
Personally, I always take the shortest route over water but then I know others who don't.
PS I have flown aircraft across the channel many times and I swear there are some engines that do know they are over water and give a little cough just for fun
Personally, I always take the shortest route over water but then I know others who don't.
PS I have flown aircraft across the channel many times and I swear there are some engines that do know they are over water and give a little cough just for fun
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19½ miles Folkestone Cap Griz-Nes. 52.3 miles St Catherine's point to the French coast, direct track MP.
FL55 is about your maximum if you're flying at proper levels on the first option. You could go to FL100 with the second option. Much higher.
Who knows what the wind will be doing on the day in question, but a conservative 100 knots in a PA28 means either 11½ mins or 31½ mins in nil wind. Halve that for the mid point on the long one and you're looking at say 16 mins from either coast. In reality, one is likely to be less because of the wind.
I think my POH for the PA28 said 500ft/min with no engine and windmilling prop, so FL100 might (might) give you a book 20 mins. It won't though, but it may be close to 16.
Aerodromes at both ends too.
FL55 is about your maximum if you're flying at proper levels on the first option. You could go to FL100 with the second option. Much higher.
Who knows what the wind will be doing on the day in question, but a conservative 100 knots in a PA28 means either 11½ mins or 31½ mins in nil wind. Halve that for the mid point on the long one and you're looking at say 16 mins from either coast. In reality, one is likely to be less because of the wind.
I think my POH for the PA28 said 500ft/min with no engine and windmilling prop, so FL100 might (might) give you a book 20 mins. It won't though, but it may be close to 16.
Aerodromes at both ends too.
Aeroplanes are most efficiently used by flying in straight lines. Water is not hospitable, but then neither are large forests or built up areas. Your call, do whatever makes you comfortable. If you do go for the long crossing, bear in mind that an hour or so in typical cross channel haze can be tiring, with often a poor horizon. And before you ask, I take the straightest line I reasonably can....
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You're paying the bills, so that choice is yours 
Certainly it would be safer talking the shorter route, and if your engine quits some day, you'll be glad that you did.
Then again, it's not likely to, but quite possible.
If the worry and fear when crossing the water makes it a not nice experience for you, then go the shorter route.
It's not a question with a perfect answer, and as a private pilot paying your own bills, you don't answer to anyone else on this question.....it's one for you and you only One of the joys of being your own pilot
Go whichever way you're more comfortable with.
dp
Certainly it would be safer talking the shorter route, and if your engine quits some day, you'll be glad that you did.
Then again, it's not likely to, but quite possible.
If the worry and fear when crossing the water makes it a not nice experience for you, then go the shorter route.
It's not a question with a perfect answer, and as a private pilot paying your own bills, you don't answer to anyone else on this question.....it's one for you and you only
One of the joys of being your own pilot Go whichever way you're more comfortable with.
dp
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19½ miles Folkestone Cap Griz-Nes. 52.3 miles St Catherine's point to the French coast, direct track MP.
FL55 is about your maximum if you're flying at proper levels on the first option. You could go to FL100 with the second option. Much higher.
Who knows what the wind will be doing on the day in question, but a conservative 100 knots in a PA28 means either 11½ mins or 31½ mins in nil wind. Halve that for the mid point on the long one and you're looking at say 16 mins from either coast. In reality, one is likely to be less because of the wind.
I think my POH for the PA28 said 500ft/min with no engine and windmilling prop, so FL100 might (might) give you a book 20 mins. It won't though, but it may be close to 16.
Aerodromes at both ends too.
FL55 is about your maximum if you're flying at proper levels on the first option. You could go to FL100 with the second option. Much higher.
Who knows what the wind will be doing on the day in question, but a conservative 100 knots in a PA28 means either 11½ mins or 31½ mins in nil wind. Halve that for the mid point on the long one and you're looking at say 16 mins from either coast. In reality, one is likely to be less because of the wind.
I think my POH for the PA28 said 500ft/min with no engine and windmilling prop, so FL100 might (might) give you a book 20 mins. It won't though, but it may be close to 16.
Aerodromes at both ends too.
Also, you need a pretty good day to make FL100 if VFR only.
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Your average spamcan has a glide ratio of 1 to 9. Hence at 5500ft you can glide for about 8 miles, and at 10K you can glide just under 15nm. In either case you are likely to get your feet wet if the donkey quits at exactly the wrong moment.
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But you won't be travelling at 100kts with a 500ft/min desent with no engine. Your forward speed will be much slower.
Also, you need a pretty good day to make FL100 if VFR only.
Also, you need a pretty good day to make FL100 if VFR only.
I swear there are some engines that do know they are over water
A bit like golf balls .......
Jack
PS I know the rationale, but it always amuses me when flights from Southampton to the south of France start by flying along the coast to Brighton!
A bit like golf balls .......
Jack
PS I know the rationale, but it always amuses me when flights from Southampton to the south of France start by flying along the coast to Brighton!
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If you were some company you'd have to plug all the variables into a safety matrix and come up with a risk assessmment. You then mitigate the risks by doing a Job Safety Analysis and reduce this risk.
I.e. Whereas water is wet and cold, you can carry a life raft and life jackets...even an immersion suit.
Flying an hour longer increases your exposure and you have more chance of having to make a forced landing...be it on trees, houses, fields or even water (as you still have to cross some). Water tends to be relatively flat and chances are you will survive a ditching. Depending how the land lies on the way to Folkstone, you may die in someones picture window of their loft, or you may walk away with dry feet. You might even be able to use the plane again (after a £20,000 engine rebuild of course).
Personally, I can swim, I wear a life jacket, I have done a HUET course (several times), I carry an EPIRB in each life jacket, one in the aeroplane and two hand helds, including a GPS one. If it is cold I might wear an immersion suit but I always carry a life raft. I know that helo from Portland can cruise at > 140 Kts and can be on scene in <20 mins....
So I'd take the shortest route
I.e. Whereas water is wet and cold, you can carry a life raft and life jackets...even an immersion suit.
Flying an hour longer increases your exposure and you have more chance of having to make a forced landing...be it on trees, houses, fields or even water (as you still have to cross some). Water tends to be relatively flat and chances are you will survive a ditching. Depending how the land lies on the way to Folkstone, you may die in someones picture window of their loft, or you may walk away with dry feet. You might even be able to use the plane again (after a £20,000 engine rebuild of course).
Personally, I can swim, I wear a life jacket, I have done a HUET course (several times), I carry an EPIRB in each life jacket, one in the aeroplane and two hand helds, including a GPS one. If it is cold I might wear an immersion suit but I always carry a life raft. I know that helo from Portland can cruise at > 140 Kts and can be on scene in <20 mins....
So I'd take the shortest route
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I fly direct over water or anything else including the Alps.
Whether I would do it in a clapped out rented spamcan, or a single-engine diesel engined plane, is a good question...
Even if crossing via Folkestone, unless you have an IR you will still be out of glide range, which means you MUST have an escape route, which means a life raft. So, once you have the life raft, more water is not a problem.
Whether I would do it in a clapped out rented spamcan, or a single-engine diesel engined plane, is a good question...
Even if crossing via Folkestone, unless you have an IR you will still be out of glide range, which means you MUST have an escape route, which means a life raft. So, once you have the life raft, more water is not a problem.
Last edited by IO540; 21st Jun 2011 at 18:48.
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To summarize all the posts so far, and the previous times this has been asked:
Nobody else can tell you what level of risk you are comfortable with, that's up to you.
Nobody else can tell you what level of risk you are comfortable with, that's up to you.
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+1. And as a further summary of other threads, tailor the risk to your abilities. Personally, having done a sea survival course in the Channel in February I won't cross large bits of open water in a SEP without a raft & immersion suit. I own neither, so I take short crossings... Jackets are easier to own & carry, I tend to carry them within easy reach but not wear them in flight, eg Calais - Dover in a twin at FL100, at night. Do what suits you though, don't let peer pressure put you somewhere that you're not comfortable with!!
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I know this has been done to death many times here already, but for me the decision is quite straightforward.
Do I have a viable escape route? No = don't fly. Yes = fly.
A life jacket is not a viable escape route in the Channel.
It's not a matter of attitude to risk.
A drysuit / immersion suit is a real belt and braces job, but you are going to have a tough time attracting girls who are that much into rubber fetishes, which is really a very 60s and 70s thing. Maybe that explains why the survival data on immersion suit wearers is so thin; most of them fly alone Flying is to be enjoyed, and dressing for a prob99 death experience is not the way to go. Get yourself a nice lightweight £1000+ life raft. I fly with this one, always (the version with the canopy is essential).
Do I have a viable escape route? No = don't fly. Yes = fly.
A life jacket is not a viable escape route in the Channel.
It's not a matter of attitude to risk.
A drysuit / immersion suit is a real belt and braces job, but you are going to have a tough time attracting girls who are that much into rubber fetishes, which is really a very 60s and 70s thing. Maybe that explains why the survival data on immersion suit wearers is so thin; most of them fly alone
Flying is to be enjoyed, and dressing for a prob99 death experience is not the way to go. Get yourself a nice lightweight £1000+ life raft. I fly with this one, always (the version with the canopy is essential).
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Io - the only bits of rubber in modern dry suites are the extremity seals, these days everything thing else is synthetic gortex shell, and the rubber bits afore referred arent of course actually rubber! Still not the most sexy outfit.
I need a week in a dry suite once - now that is a real experience.
Water for me = liferaft, jackets, portable epirb, the epirb in the aircraft is not much good when it sinks and you have drifted 3 miles with the current - i will take my chances after that.
I need a week in a dry suite once - now that is a real experience.
Water for me = liferaft, jackets, portable epirb, the epirb in the aircraft is not much good when it sinks and you have drifted 3 miles with the current - i will take my chances after that.
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Risk Management
Do you know the aircraft well ?
Do you have Life jackets, liferaft, & PLB's ?
Do you any ditching training?
Do you have a ditching plan if the worst should happen ?
If the answer to all the questions is yes then you have made over water flight as safe as you can.
Do you have Life jackets, liferaft, & PLB's ?
Do you any ditching training?
Do you have a ditching plan if the worst should happen ?
If the answer to all the questions is yes then you have made over water flight as safe as you can.
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As someone who needs to fly over a reasonable amount of water to fly abroad, and as someone for whom the greatest appeal of flying is to fly abroad, it's an area that I've given a fair bit of thought to.
Some observations that I've made over the years, that might help your thought process:
1. If you are departing from somewhere near the coast, in anything but a high performance aircraft, then you will never be able to glide back to the near coast in the event of a full engine failure. The climb profile is usually must shallower than the desent without an engine profile.
2. While a great idea, it's very rare that I'll get to climb to FL100 for a water crossing as a VFR only pilot. There are two reasons for this. Firstly weather doesn't usually allow it, and secondly there is bound to be a class A airway somewhere that will block your climb profile, unless you are prepared to circle for some time while climbing.
3. In a low performance aircraft, climbing over water increases the time that you are exposed to a ditching in the event of an engine failure. Of course when you climb it means that your gliding distance is further, but your speed over the water is also reduced while climbing meaning that it takes longer to cross the water. This was brought home to me one time when I flew from Caernarfon to Dublin, in a PA28-140, and climbed to FL80. FL 80 was great because it meant that I could glide about 12 miles, but when I worked it out afterwards, I spent much more time (minutes) over the water than I would have if I chose to stop the climb at 3000ft, because of the much slower forward speed while climbing. Do your long climbs over land (or within gliding distance of land).
4. There is an altitude above which your rate of climb vs forward speed becomes unacceptably slow for doing over water. (See 3 above). Above this you are better off taking the forward speed rather than the altitude.
5. Altitude is not really for gliding to land. You'll be lucky if you can glide to land. What altitude does is a) give you time to figure out what the problem is, and possibly come up with a solution, and b) time out of the water, waiting on SAR to get closer to you to minimise your time in the water.
6. Life jacket are very difficult to put on while in the aircraft, even when another pilot is flying. Don't expect to be able to put them on after an engine failure. (If you don't believe me, try it on your next flight over land.) Make sure everyone is wearing them before you take off.
7. Ditchings aren't all that common, but they do happen. There is usually 1-3 per year reported on here or Flyer around the UK.
8. The most common cause (though not the only one) seems to be running out of fuel. If w&b allows carry full tanks. If W&B doesn't allow, then carry enough fuel to make your destination, then enough to divert a long way away especially if your destination is a coastal airfield....you might need to cross back over the sea to where you came from. Then allow for unforecast headwinds, then add 50% margin. Then put in a few extra litres to allow of mistakes. If your W&B doesn't allow this, then leave a passenger behind. Ok...maybe just a little extreme, but you get the idea. Don't plan to arrive low on fuel, and don't count on being able to get into your destination or anywhere around. Weather over land is often very different to weather over the sea.
9. While there isn't a huge amount of statistics on ditchings, it seems that you are likely to survive the ditching itself, and are likely to make it out of the aircraft. Where most people die is in the water waiting for help to arrive.
10. Unless you get a mayday call out, which is heard, it is likely to be a long time before S&R are launched to look for you. You will be waiting on someone to notice that you are missing (possibly quite some time after your ETA). Then ATC (might) start to ring around other airfields to see if you've landed there, and only then will S&R be launched. Without the mayday, it's likely to be many hours before a search is started. Even PLB's take 45 minutes to get a signal, and some test have shown many to never get a signal, unless in ideal conditions.
11. Life jackets will help you to avoid drowning, but they aren't enough to save your life by themselves. They have two significant problem. Firstly they don't protect you from the cold, which is most likely to kill you. Secondly, when just wearing a life jacket, only your head sticks out of the water. Even with SAR almost directly over you, spotting a head out of the water is extremely (even extremely extremly) difficult to do. You need something more to keep you warn, and something to help you be found.
12. Immersion suits will keep you warm in the water, but won't help you to be found. If you choose to use one, you'll also need a PLB.
13. Life rafts are extremely difficult to get into. Know your life raft, and what facilities it has to help you get into it. Many people have ditched and not been able to get into their raft. Most rafts have some aid to help you get in, but not necessarily step, and it might not be obvious. Know what yours has and where to find it. Unless you are light weight, even steps don't make it very easy to get in. Some practice on a ditching course in a pool will help you learn techniques that can help.
14. In a PA28, with 4 people, it will be difficult for everyone to get out. Make sure you have a plan, and everyone knows the plan and knows the order that they get out. Make sure everyone knows that if they delay their exit for any reason, they are likely to be killing people behind them.
15. Some people don't mind water crossings one bit, others are very uncomfortable with them. Make your own decisions. If you are someone who isn't comfortable with long water crossings, then flying won't be fun for you when you are doing the crossing, so don't do it. If going the long way adds an hour, then so be it....it's an extra hours flying time, and time that you will enjoy
16. Finding your way out of a submerged aircraft might not be as simple as it sounds, as it may be quite dark. Think about it sometime you are setting in the aircraft on the ground, close your eyes, and figure how you'd find your way out in an inverted in the dark, with bags thrown around the place.
These of course are only my own observations and thoughts over the years. Obviously others will have different opinions, and flying different types of aircraft can give were different conclusions to some of these points. There is always a trade off between the length of the crossing and the distance to go around it, but it's one for you to make and not for anyone else to tell you what to do
I hope this is of some help.
dp
Edited to correct typos....I'm the typo knig
Some observations that I've made over the years, that might help your thought process:
1. If you are departing from somewhere near the coast, in anything but a high performance aircraft, then you will never be able to glide back to the near coast in the event of a full engine failure. The climb profile is usually must shallower than the desent without an engine profile.
2. While a great idea, it's very rare that I'll get to climb to FL100 for a water crossing as a VFR only pilot. There are two reasons for this. Firstly weather doesn't usually allow it, and secondly there is bound to be a class A airway somewhere that will block your climb profile, unless you are prepared to circle for some time while climbing.
3. In a low performance aircraft, climbing over water increases the time that you are exposed to a ditching in the event of an engine failure. Of course when you climb it means that your gliding distance is further, but your speed over the water is also reduced while climbing meaning that it takes longer to cross the water. This was brought home to me one time when I flew from Caernarfon to Dublin, in a PA28-140, and climbed to FL80. FL 80 was great because it meant that I could glide about 12 miles, but when I worked it out afterwards, I spent much more time (minutes) over the water than I would have if I chose to stop the climb at 3000ft, because of the much slower forward speed while climbing. Do your long climbs over land (or within gliding distance of land).
4. There is an altitude above which your rate of climb vs forward speed becomes unacceptably slow for doing over water. (See 3 above). Above this you are better off taking the forward speed rather than the altitude.
5. Altitude is not really for gliding to land. You'll be lucky if you can glide to land. What altitude does is a) give you time to figure out what the problem is, and possibly come up with a solution, and b) time out of the water, waiting on SAR to get closer to you to minimise your time in the water.
6. Life jacket are very difficult to put on while in the aircraft, even when another pilot is flying. Don't expect to be able to put them on after an engine failure. (If you don't believe me, try it on your next flight over land.) Make sure everyone is wearing them before you take off.
7. Ditchings aren't all that common, but they do happen. There is usually 1-3 per year reported on here or Flyer around the UK.
8. The most common cause (though not the only one) seems to be running out of fuel. If w&b allows carry full tanks. If W&B doesn't allow, then carry enough fuel to make your destination, then enough to divert a long way away especially if your destination is a coastal airfield....you might need to cross back over the sea to where you came from. Then allow for unforecast headwinds, then add 50% margin. Then put in a few extra litres to allow of mistakes. If your W&B doesn't allow this, then leave a passenger behind. Ok...maybe just a little extreme, but you get the idea. Don't plan to arrive low on fuel, and don't count on being able to get into your destination or anywhere around. Weather over land is often very different to weather over the sea.
9. While there isn't a huge amount of statistics on ditchings, it seems that you are likely to survive the ditching itself, and are likely to make it out of the aircraft. Where most people die is in the water waiting for help to arrive.
10. Unless you get a mayday call out, which is heard, it is likely to be a long time before S&R are launched to look for you. You will be waiting on someone to notice that you are missing (possibly quite some time after your ETA). Then ATC (might) start to ring around other airfields to see if you've landed there, and only then will S&R be launched. Without the mayday, it's likely to be many hours before a search is started. Even PLB's take 45 minutes to get a signal, and some test have shown many to never get a signal, unless in ideal conditions.
11. Life jackets will help you to avoid drowning, but they aren't enough to save your life by themselves. They have two significant problem. Firstly they don't protect you from the cold, which is most likely to kill you. Secondly, when just wearing a life jacket, only your head sticks out of the water. Even with SAR almost directly over you, spotting a head out of the water is extremely (even extremely extremly) difficult to do. You need something more to keep you warn, and something to help you be found.
12. Immersion suits will keep you warm in the water, but won't help you to be found. If you choose to use one, you'll also need a PLB.
13. Life rafts are extremely difficult to get into. Know your life raft, and what facilities it has to help you get into it. Many people have ditched and not been able to get into their raft. Most rafts have some aid to help you get in, but not necessarily step, and it might not be obvious. Know what yours has and where to find it. Unless you are light weight, even steps don't make it very easy to get in. Some practice on a ditching course in a pool will help you learn techniques that can help.
14. In a PA28, with 4 people, it will be difficult for everyone to get out. Make sure you have a plan, and everyone knows the plan and knows the order that they get out. Make sure everyone knows that if they delay their exit for any reason, they are likely to be killing people behind them.
15. Some people don't mind water crossings one bit, others are very uncomfortable with them. Make your own decisions. If you are someone who isn't comfortable with long water crossings, then flying won't be fun for you when you are doing the crossing, so don't do it. If going the long way adds an hour, then so be it....it's an extra hours flying time, and time that you will enjoy
16. Finding your way out of a submerged aircraft might not be as simple as it sounds, as it may be quite dark. Think about it sometime you are setting in the aircraft on the ground, close your eyes, and figure how you'd find your way out in an inverted in the dark, with bags thrown around the place.
These of course are only my own observations and thoughts over the years. Obviously others will have different opinions, and flying different types of aircraft can give were different conclusions to some of these points. There is always a trade off between the length of the crossing and the distance to go around it, but it's one for you to make and not for anyone else to tell you what to do
I hope this is of some help.
dp
Edited to correct typos....I'm the typo knig
Last edited by dublinpilot; 22nd Jun 2011 at 11:48.
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Some very good advice from Dublinpilot the only thing I would add would be to item 10.
Getting out a MAYDAY is vital but it will also need a location, the best wat to do this is to put your GPS on the page that gives the radial and distance from the nearest VOR. As you are going down you must broardcast this position in 121.5 untill you are about to hit the water.
Since 9/11 airliners are all listening on 121.5 so you will have people who can relay your position even if your last transmition was done at thirty feet.
The reason to use a VOR R/D is that this will be known to most of the airline crews listening and they can relay this position without any chance of error.
This should get the rescue helicopter near enough to your position that PLB you have can be homed on using VHF or UHF.
Getting out a MAYDAY is vital but it will also need a location, the best wat to do this is to put your GPS on the page that gives the radial and distance from the nearest VOR. As you are going down you must broardcast this position in 121.5 untill you are about to hit the water.
Since 9/11 airliners are all listening on 121.5 so you will have people who can relay your position even if your last transmition was done at thirty feet.
The reason to use a VOR R/D is that this will be known to most of the airline crews listening and they can relay this position without any chance of error.
This should get the rescue helicopter near enough to your position that PLB you have can be homed on using VHF or UHF.