UK PA-30 crash in France
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The weather over the Alps has been quite bad yesterday afternoon/evening and this morning but at the time of the accident it seems to have been fine around the actual area. I guess we'll have to wait for further information before jumping to any hypotheses.
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I guess we'll have to wait for further information before jumping to any hypotheses.
Tragic accident and great sadness for friends and families.
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Recent update here BBC News - Two Britons die in south of France plane crash
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According to the post on Flyer, the pilot was awaiting his IFR clearance (or waiting for an amended IFR clearance) at the time
Jim asked to climb and change airways joining point and was asked to stand by.
I don't know anything about the circumstances of this one (e.g. the departure airport) but that is often a very tricky part of an IFR flight. You are without a clearance so have to remain OCAS, have to remain "VFR", but fairly obviously you are not a helicopter so you cannot just hover until ATC get around to getting you the clearance. Normally, you try to fly in the general direction you want to be going, and hope that you don't get too close to CAS etc before you get it. Sometimes the wx in the area is such that you initially fly in a very different direction, to position yourself such that when the clearance arrives you are not asked to fly through a load of cumulus etc. I've had this in Greece where a clearance took maybe half an hour (the controllers were probably asleep, and the visibility was crap), in France (another half an hour), etc. In the UK this happens often because if you depart anywhere on the s. coast going north, ATC want to keep you very low to avoid conflicts with LHR/LGW traffic. You might fly 50nm+ at low level and in these cases you often enter IMC long before you get any ATC service. In the winter, you may also find yourself in icing conditions during this time. So even on an IFR flight you need VFR charts, highly preferably ones running as a GPS moving map so you can see where the terrain and CAS lie.
And same applies to cancelling an IFR clearance, prior to arriving at a VFR-only airport.
N2195B also crashed while awaiting an IFR clearance, though he did get himself severely boxed in by circumstances and his earlier choice of flight rules. N403HP also crashed after having (needlessly in his case) cancelled IFR. Those two were quite "close to home" for me.
Jim asked to climb and change airways joining point and was asked to stand by.
I don't know anything about the circumstances of this one (e.g. the departure airport) but that is often a very tricky part of an IFR flight. You are without a clearance so have to remain OCAS, have to remain "VFR", but fairly obviously you are not a helicopter so you cannot just hover until ATC get around to getting you the clearance. Normally, you try to fly in the general direction you want to be going, and hope that you don't get too close to CAS etc before you get it. Sometimes the wx in the area is such that you initially fly in a very different direction, to position yourself such that when the clearance arrives you are not asked to fly through a load of cumulus etc. I've had this in Greece where a clearance took maybe half an hour (the controllers were probably asleep, and the visibility was crap), in France (another half an hour), etc. In the UK this happens often because if you depart anywhere on the s. coast going north, ATC want to keep you very low to avoid conflicts with LHR/LGW traffic. You might fly 50nm+ at low level and in these cases you often enter IMC long before you get any ATC service. In the winter, you may also find yourself in icing conditions during this time. So even on an IFR flight you need VFR charts, highly preferably ones running as a GPS moving map so you can see where the terrain and CAS lie.
And same applies to cancelling an IFR clearance, prior to arriving at a VFR-only airport.
N2195B also crashed while awaiting an IFR clearance, though he did get himself severely boxed in by circumstances and his earlier choice of flight rules. N403HP also crashed after having (needlessly in his case) cancelled IFR. Those two were quite "close to home" for me.
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Obviously it is incredibly sad that two people have lost their lives but it does pain me slightly also to see such a beautiful aircraft as a Twin Comanche lost.
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IO or other IFR rated pilots
Technically speaking, on an IFR flight if ATC asks you to stand by for your clearance, are you still VFR and therefore responsible for your own flight clear of obstacles?
Does this then imply that one cannot commence such an IFR flight in conditions below VFR minima?
I am assuming this relates to the activation of an IFR flightplan in the air as opposed to prior to departure?
Does this then imply that one cannot commence such an IFR flight in conditions below VFR minima?
I am assuming this relates to the activation of an IFR flightplan in the air as opposed to prior to departure?
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Technically speaking, on an IFR flight if ATC asks you to stand by for your clearance, are you still VFR and therefore responsible for your own flight clear of obstacles?
Does this then imply that one cannot commence such an IFR flight in conditions below VFR minima?
Does this then imply that one cannot commence such an IFR flight in conditions below VFR minima?
In the UK, Class G, an instrument qualified pilot can enter IMC, because IFR in Class G does not require radio contact.
Outside the UK, this is a grey area because there is no possibility of a clearance in Class G anyway.
I am assuming this relates to the activation of an IFR flightplan in the air as opposed to prior to departure?
It is certainly easier to elevate a flight plan to IFR if you have filed a Z flight plan (which specifies a transition to IFR at a specific waypoint) otherwise ATC have to knock up a routing for you. In the southern UK, this is almost impossible but French ATC can do it pretty quickly (minutes, IME).
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Technically speaking, on an IFR flight if ATC asks you to stand by for your clearance, are you still VFR and therefore responsible for your own flight clear of obstacles?
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In this case the departure was apparently from Lucca LIQL, which is a VFR-only airport.
This is consistent with the pilot flying VFR for quite some distance, along the coast, presumably for sightseeing reasons, before encountering the bad wx near Nice.
This is consistent with the pilot flying VFR for quite some distance, along the coast, presumably for sightseeing reasons, before encountering the bad wx near Nice.
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Is it ever possible to get clearances on the ground via the radio with the area radar unit or over the phone in Europe? Have done the former in the UK and the latter in the US when departing uncontrolled airfields.
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Departing an airport in CAS you can get a full departure clearance. This is the standard international situation.
Departing an airport OCAS you get (at most) just a provisional DC e.g. squawk 1234, climb FL050, remain OCAS, on track DVR, contact London Control on 123.45.
Or you get nothing, especially if there is nobody in the tower, or it is a VFR-only airport. In that case you depart and try to fly in the general direction you want to go, while sometimes frantically
making radio calls to the regional IFR control unit to pick up an IFR clearance before you reach CAS or reach the nearest TCU
On the phone... not officially anywhere I know in Europe of but I have heard of it done. It is certainly possible. In the UK, the numbers are unpublished.
Departing an airport OCAS you get (at most) just a provisional DC e.g. squawk 1234, climb FL050, remain OCAS, on track DVR, contact London Control on 123.45.
Or you get nothing, especially if there is nobody in the tower, or it is a VFR-only airport. In that case you depart and try to fly in the general direction you want to go, while sometimes frantically
making radio calls to the regional IFR control unit to pick up an IFR clearance before you reach CAS or reach the nearest TCU On the phone... not officially anywhere I know in Europe of but I have heard of it done. It is certainly possible. In the UK, the numbers are unpublished.
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Good morning!
This is no grey area outside the UK, it is plainly and simply forbidden. In class G airspace, you maintain VMC. If unable to do so on your intended route, you turn back. If unable to turn back, you declare and emergency and will receive immediate climb clearance and vectors away from traffic and obstacles.
Every IFR clearance for a flight originating in class G airspace will contain wording similar to this: "IFR starts passing 5000ft, maintain VMC until 5000ft". If unable, you are supposed to tell someone. Or risk crashing into mountains or other traffic instead.
When will this kind of accident ever stop happening? It is totally unnecessary to kill yourself and your passengers in this way. Only to save a few minutes circling while your IFR flight plan gets processed. Or to save the trouble connected to the (possible) consequences of declaring that you have already entered instrument meteorological conditions and need assistance now. With or without flight plan and clearance. Over the years I have seen far too many of these accidents.
In the UK, Class G, an instrument qualified pilot can enter IMC, because IFR in Class G does not require radio contact.
Outside the UK, this is a grey area because there is no possibility of a clearance in Class G anyway.
Outside the UK, this is a grey area because there is no possibility of a clearance in Class G anyway.
Every IFR clearance for a flight originating in class G airspace will contain wording similar to this: "IFR starts passing 5000ft, maintain VMC until 5000ft". If unable, you are supposed to tell someone. Or risk crashing into mountains or other traffic instead.
When will this kind of accident ever stop happening? It is totally unnecessary to kill yourself and your passengers in this way. Only to save a few minutes circling while your IFR flight plan gets processed. Or to save the trouble connected to the (possible) consequences of declaring that you have already entered instrument meteorological conditions and need assistance now. With or without flight plan and clearance. Over the years I have seen far too many of these accidents.
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It is interesting to note that when these accidents happen it is invariably British pilots involved. Are our IMC in Class G rules and mentality to lax and lead is to pushing it in other countries where the ramifications are much greater?
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It is interesting to note that when these accidents happen it is invariably British pilots involved. Are our IMC in Class G rules and mentality to lax and lead is to pushing it in other countries where the ramifications are much greater?
And regarding British pilots: Maybe they fly in the (false) assumption that at 1500ft MSL you are safe from both airspace and terrain whatever the flying conditions may be. Inside most parts of UK airspace this assumption may be true, but outside the UK it is only true regarding airspace...