UK PA-30 crash in France
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Those that know talk with the AAIB.
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IFR Flying out of Italy in relation to this tragedy
Sorry to revive this thread but I wanted to ask a question about the circumstances:
When you depart an airport in the Liguria area (like LIQL, but others spring to mind, like Cuneo (Captain Slow in Top Gear) and you want to go home (i.e. to the UK, Belgium or Holland), there seem to be very little practical opportunities to fly IFR low enroute, because of
- the Alps
- Nice Airport routing
- an Italian military training area.
I was trying to fly the Simplon route on a Yankee FPL, but when the weather is only mildly acting up, it is a complete no-no without oxygen and a reasonably performant aircraft.
For those interested, a fair weather routing at 10000 Ft could be
... SRN L153 ARLES VFR SRN315042 (Masera) DCT SRN315046 (Varzo) DCT SRN310051 DCT MOT090021 (Brigg) DCT LSTA DCT MOT DCT SIO DCT SIO238012 (Martigny) DCT LSGB DCT REVLI... where you can pick up the A41 and the A1 to DJL ...
[Disclaimer - check on a current map, do your own calcs and have approach plates of intermediate airports ready]
However, if the weather is mediocre or bad, you're condemned to flying a wide arc around the mainland, half way to Corsica, with nothing to sight-see and burning at least 60 minutes of extra avgas for nothing (more if the headwinds are strong).
Would you agree that the non-existence of low IFR routing in the direction of France (out of Italy) near the Ventimiglia border could have been an contributing factor to this accident, as it can urge pilots to take unnecessary risks ? Wouldn't it make more sense to provide a low route to USANO from the east and allow Y15 transit at, say 10000 Ft ?
Link to the French Low Airspace Map here
Of course, I'm fully aware this will not avoid hitting terrain if you are proceeding north-northwest in IMC at 8000 ft; Rather, it is the additional circumstances created by specific Nice and Italy MIL procedures I'm referring to.
When you depart an airport in the Liguria area (like LIQL, but others spring to mind, like Cuneo (Captain Slow in Top Gear) and you want to go home (i.e. to the UK, Belgium or Holland), there seem to be very little practical opportunities to fly IFR low enroute, because of
- the Alps
- Nice Airport routing
- an Italian military training area.
I was trying to fly the Simplon route on a Yankee FPL, but when the weather is only mildly acting up, it is a complete no-no without oxygen and a reasonably performant aircraft.
For those interested, a fair weather routing at 10000 Ft could be
... SRN L153 ARLES VFR SRN315042 (Masera) DCT SRN315046 (Varzo) DCT SRN310051 DCT MOT090021 (Brigg) DCT LSTA DCT MOT DCT SIO DCT SIO238012 (Martigny) DCT LSGB DCT REVLI... where you can pick up the A41 and the A1 to DJL ...
[Disclaimer - check on a current map, do your own calcs and have approach plates of intermediate airports ready]
However, if the weather is mediocre or bad, you're condemned to flying a wide arc around the mainland, half way to Corsica, with nothing to sight-see and burning at least 60 minutes of extra avgas for nothing (more if the headwinds are strong).
Would you agree that the non-existence of low IFR routing in the direction of France (out of Italy) near the Ventimiglia border could have been an contributing factor to this accident, as it can urge pilots to take unnecessary risks ? Wouldn't it make more sense to provide a low route to USANO from the east and allow Y15 transit at, say 10000 Ft ?
Link to the French Low Airspace Map here
Of course, I'm fully aware this will not avoid hitting terrain if you are proceeding north-northwest in IMC at 8000 ft; Rather, it is the additional circumstances created by specific Nice and Italy MIL procedures I'm referring to.
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Yes; I have read a fair few comments in various places saying basically what you are saying.
My standard "line" is that high altitude (i.e. Eurocontrol flight plan) IFR without oxygen is a waste of time.
Not just due to situations like you mention, most of which can be hacked on a Z if you have a nice big GPS running a "real" VFR chart allowing you to wiggle your way up in some little triangle of airspace, while you sometimes furiously work the radio to pick up your IFR clearance before you run out of uncontrolled airspace, but more importantly enroute, where non-oxygen flight just puts you straight into IMC below 0C, in most of N Europe, summer or winter.
Obviously one needs the operating ceiling but even an Archer can do ~ 14000ft (with some engine instrumentation). Having oxygen is an absolute revelation which makes most fresh adopters wonder why they went without it for as long. On my first long trip (Spain in 2003, VFR) I had one look at the maps and bought an o2 kit there and then.
My standard "line" is that high altitude (i.e. Eurocontrol flight plan) IFR without oxygen is a waste of time.
Not just due to situations like you mention, most of which can be hacked on a Z if you have a nice big GPS running a "real" VFR chart allowing you to wiggle your way up in some little triangle of airspace, while you sometimes furiously work the radio to pick up your IFR clearance before you run out of uncontrolled airspace, but more importantly enroute, where non-oxygen flight just puts you straight into IMC below 0C, in most of N Europe, summer or winter.
Obviously one needs the operating ceiling but even an Archer can do ~ 14000ft (with some engine instrumentation). Having oxygen is an absolute revelation which makes most fresh adopters wonder why they went without it for as long. On my first long trip (Spain in 2003, VFR) I had one look at the maps and bought an o2 kit there and then.
