UK PA-30 crash in France

[IO540]

This is no grey area outside the UK, it is plainly and simply forbidden

Fair enough; you describe the German situation. My point is that there is no concept of a clearance in Class G so what law is being broken if the pilot has an IR? I guess Germany requires "something" for IFR in Class G but it cannot be a clearance

If Germany requires an IFR clearance for IFR in Class G, it is in breach of ICAO airspace classification.

When the FAA has busted pilots for a VFR departure into "obvious" IMC (witnessed from the ground) it busted them not for not having an IFR clearance but for not having filed an IFR flight plan.

Re the bose-x assertion, shall we post links to a load of crashes by non-UK instrument rated pilots?

This pilot, it is implied from the Flyer post saying he was requesting an IFR clearance, had an IR. Obviously this can't be verified. He did have an FAA SE IR which seems to have lapsed in 2005 but that's not relevant on a G-reg. He appears to have had a UK CPL in 2005 (his FAA PPL was based on that). So what does the UK IMCR have to do with this?

[S-Works]

Where did the UK IMCr come into the discussion?

I repeat my QUESTION. Is there a possible connection with the UK's IMC in Class G rules and laxer mentality towards flight in IMC and the number of UK pilots ending up on the side of mountains.

Perhaps it is because we are able to grub hunt around in IMC in Glass G that we carry this mentality outside of the UK and into trouble?

Discussion, not pissing contest.

[TWR]

In France: you can pick up your IFR clearance via the phone. That's why I got the A20 with BT .

In Belgium: you can fly IFR OCAS. Two-way radio comms is compulsory, though...

You don't need an ATC clerance to fly IFR, but you do need a clearance to enter CAS. People mix those two things up from time to time...

[Squeegee Longtail]

This particular airspace around Nice is very very busy at times. I fly it regularly (did so no more than 2 hours ago) and know that the Nice controllers can keep you waiting for clearance for quite some time (not their fault, just that Nice is France's 2nd busiest airport). There is a lot of terrain around. The wx was horrible so it could have been very stressful up there.

That all said, with the latest (relatively cheap) terrain warning GPS systems around (portable even), why doesn't everyone who flies serious distances/routes either VFR or IFR not use them? Seriously, it buys you peace of mind in such stressful circumstances. Not hitting the ground is one of my main considerations when flying.

I know we don't know these particular crash details, and I am not inferring anything in this particular case, (they may well have had a good GPS terrain system and there were other factors) but in general I see a lot of a/c flying with some quite obsolete kit and always wonder why.

[IO540]

Maybe they fly in the (false) assumption that at 1500ft MSL you are safe from both airspace and terrain whatever the flying conditions may be. Inside most parts of UK airspace this assumption may be true, but outside the UK it is only true regarding airspace...

I would think this is unlikely. Few pilots will be that stupid. Everybody knows there are mountains down there.

I think this is a straight case of a loss of SA, facilitated by the pilot not having a GPS with a usable terrain representation/map and, in the final case, not having TAWS/GPWS which would have warned him in an increasingly excited female voice that he was going to kick the bucket if he continued the present trajectory for 2 minutes or whatever.

Often, there are other factors e.g. a desire to avoid Eurocontrol charges (not relevant to the Twin Com which is below 2000kg), or not having a valid IR so not requesting an IFR clearance until absolutely unavoidable. We won't know the paperwork until BEA get around to doing the report in a few years' time.

I must say I find this kind of accident incomprehensible. In general, one's forward vis on a good day is 50-100nm and I would be asking for an IFR clearance many miles before getting anywhere near any IMC/high cloud.

But much is being made of some forum one-liners. Was the pilot actually asking for an "IFR clearance"? If not then he possibly didn't have an IR. I am sure somebody out there knows.

Also the news reports of flying low due to fog doesn't make sense. Fog goes all the way down, usually.

[what next]

If Germany requires an IFR clearance for IFR in Class G, it is in breach of ICAO airspace classification.

In Germany, IFR flight is verboten inside class G airspace. Therefore, there are no IFR clearances for class G either.

[IO540]

Ok; I recall Germany being one of the few countries in Europe where V/Z/Y flight plans are mandated for airports without an IAP.

This is rare in Europe, on the whole.

[Fuji Abound]

It is interesting to note that when these accidents happen it is invariably British pilots involved. Are our IMC in Class G rules and mentality to lax and lead is to pushing it in other countries where the ramifications are much greater?

Bose - that is ridiculous. You know better, so I can only assume you are being provocative, but for what purpose?

[vanHorck]

Well Fuji,

You are asking for the obvious....

Because IO is on line, and he is known to "bite"!

[Contacttower]

In France: you can pick up your IFR clearance via the phone. That's why I got the A20 with BT .

Where are the numbers published?

As far as the IFR clearance theory is concerned; not sure about the airspace around Lucca but I would have thought it a bit odd if he'd flown far enough to reach Mont Agel without getting one if he'd intended to fly IFR from the outset - presumably he could have picked one up before leaving Italian airspace?

Telegraph report names Luchia as the departure point, is that a mistake?


Edit to add: Having read the Flyer thread in its entirety now that gives a better understanding of what the sequence of events was.

[TWR]

You can find the phone nr at the same desk as where you pay the landing fee.

Otherwise "France AIP GEN 3.1-5" is a good start.

And you'll find some good info in the Jeppesen Airway Manual as wel...

[bookworm]

This is no grey area outside the UK, it is plainly and simply forbidden. In class G airspace, you maintain VMC.

Just to reiterate what TWR and others have said, that requirement is peculiar to Germany. Most other states permit IFR in class G, though in Europe, it only seems to be a standard enroute operating practice in the UK. There are IAPs in class G in many states, including France and Belgium.

[421C]

There is a paper here describing circumstances of recent accidents with some potentially common themes to this one:
http://www.pplir.org/images/stories/...t%20review.pdf

I guess whilst CFIT/VFR into IMC seems most likely, we may subsequently find the cause wasn't the ''most likely'. I'm thinking, for example, of the Navajo that crashed after departure from Oxford (IIRC), where it looked like a 'classic' Loss of Control on entering IMC, but it turned out to be pilot incapacitation.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by SoCal App

I think this is the main point here.
Why fly along the coast VFR sightseeing (as suggested earlier) and then go headlong into IMC without an advance clearance to do so. Makes no sense whatsoever.
Just do a 180 back to decent viz and sort out your IFR clearance. No use 'fingering' the French controllers because they advised him to stand by.

I suspect this was not your typical VFR sightseeing flight. There are no good Non-oxygen routesnfrom that part of Italy past Nice. You either need to go for FL150 or go via Corsica!!

I would suspect a decision to go vfr and if necessary pick up an enroute IFR clearances (or possibly a Z flight plan with the join after Nice). The weather as posted by BW wouldn't really have given a big concern.

METAR LFMN 171030Z 18009KT 9999 FEW013 BKN130 23/20 Q1017 NOSIG=

From a flyer post it seems the mist at altitude (and maybe sun?) combined to reduce forward viz to 0.

I can imagine sitting there looking down on the Med but with an indistinct forward viz in haze, deciding to try and get an early join but not too worried, coasting in and then suddenly realising you are really IMC and 30 seconds later .....

Of all of the accidents involving IR rated pilots, this one I can see a probable accident chain that could get quite a number of people I know (to be honest including myself - although hopefully the TAWS would have saved the day)

-----------------
Several years ago I did an analysis of weather related accidents and found CFIT/LOC accidents by IR/IMCr pilots in the UK were vanishingly rare. However, there was some circumstantial evidence there were a number (c. 3x as many) overseas fatal accidents of G-reg aircraft in potentially IMC conditions However, the details were not in the AAIB data so it was impossible to evaluate the circumstances. With regard to Bose's point, I suspect the UK has a very IMC tolerant geography as compared to, for instance, the Alps, Rockies, Greenland, etc. Also there may be higher risks when operating outside familiar environments/procedures. This may mean UK pilots are more likely to come to grief on tour - equally it could just be operating IFR in unfamiliar mountains is more risky than in familiar plains.

[IO540]

Also UK pilots are far more likely to be touring France (or anywhere else) than French pilots are likely to be touring the UK (or anywhere else).

So I would expect to see much more UK-based wreckage in France than French-based wreckage in the UK.

it turned out to be pilot incapacitation.

Like most AAIB findings, that was pure speculation, based on the suspected pilot in command having had advanced coronary heart disease.

[AN2 Driver]

Maybe I am totally off track here, but isn't Mont Angel just north of the direct line between the E point and NA, that is one of the VFR avoiding routes around the Nice CTR?

With the METARs of Nice, that could well have lured this crew into believing that they could easily follow that route, yet local conditions were different? The Nice METARs would not really have anyone imagine to encounter IMC that close to nice at that altitude, sometimes however, the "FEW" are exactly where you don't expect them.

Maybe that is why they asked unexpectedly for IFR when they lost visibility and the Nice Controller took some time to figure out where to send them?

[DX Wombat]

Is there a bit of confusion here about flying according to IFR and flying in IMC? I was taught that it is perfectly legitimate to fly IFR without an IR or IMC rating providing I flew in VFR conditions, but that flying in IMC was forbidden without holding an appropriate qualification. Has this been changed?

[Fuji Abound]

Has this changed?

No, not really, it is just that the UK is different from most other places.

In the UK IFR is purely a state of the mind it says nothing about the papers you have. It is only when you are not longer in VMC that you need instrument papers in the UK.

Elsewhere, on the whole, IFR is all about the papers you have and nothing to do with the weather. So you can be in wall to wall VMC but if you declare IFR you need an instrument rating of some sort. To make matters worse if you are not in the "right" airspace then you cant be IFR even if it is wall to wall white.

That is the simple explanation.

I suppose if you were a pilot you would think to your self it is so daft you coudnt make it up if you tried, but then I guess the regulators believe they should also be able to control the clouds. I have not yet seen a cloud with an N on the side mind you - unless IO540 or Pace are coming out of it mind you.

[IO540]

Penetration of IMC which is unauthorised in that particular airspace is virtually irrelevant to safety if the pilot is instrument capable and has sufficient resources to be aware of his obstacle clearance in all phases of flight.

Mid-airs in IMC are virtually unheard of, with the last UK one believed to have been during WW2.

It is terrain which is the real issue, and IFR GA operations in Europe have so many procedural holes in them (e.g. so many VFR-only airports, and IFR airports OCAS and without a radar service which might give you some protection based on the controller's MVA, where you have to hack your own procedures) that a pilot on an IFR flight plan really does need the full level of terrain awareness.

And most pilots haven't got that, even today.

[421C]

Fuji,

No, not really, it is just that the UK is different from most other places.

In the UK IFR is purely a state of the mind it says nothing about the papers you have. It is only when you are not longer in VMC that you need instrument papers in the UK.

Elsewhere, on the whole, IFR is all about the papers you have and nothing to do with the weather. So you can be in wall to wall VMC but if you declare IFR you need an instrument rating of some sort. To make matters worse if you are not in the "right" airspace then you cant be IFR even if it is wall to wall white.

That is the simple explanation

No, it's a bad explanation. Incorrect and confusing.

There are 3 relevant elements to the explanation. Weather conditions, flight rules and airspace.
1. All VFR has to be in VMC.
2. All IFR in controlled airspace needs an IFR clearance.
3. All flight in IMC needs to be under IFR.
4. In 2 and 3, the pilot needs an instrument qualification
Obviously, in VMC and outside controlled airspace, a pilot could be IFR, but it's a bit meaningless except for flight at night in the UK. There is no difference in IFR usage between the UK and the rest of the world, except for some variations in the extent of Class G (eg. very little in the US) and the German outlier that IFR is not permitted in Class G.

I suppose if you were a pilot you would think to your self it is so daft you coudnt make it up if you tried, but then I guess the regulators believe they should also be able to control the clouds. I have not yet seen a cloud with an N on the side mind you - unless IO540 or Pace are coming out of it mind you

The usage of VFR and IFR is simple and clear. The only daft thing is your explanation (forgive me). What would you propose as an alternative system to VFR and IFR?

IO,

Penetration of IMC which is unauthorised in that particular airspace is virtually irrelevant to safety if the pilot is instrument capable and has sufficient resources to be aware of his obstacle clearance in all phases of flight.

This is so wincingly embarrassing, I don't know what to say. What purpose can posting something like this serve?