To fly or not to fly?
Thread Starter
To fly or not to fly?
Question for the professional pilots.. I have 'had control' a few times , but I'm no pilot, in the same manner that I'm using a keyboard but i'm not a writer.
So I accept the offer of a jolly with a mate of mine who's got a tail-dragger of some vintage. He is fairly light on hours.
The flight is uneventful, apart from a stiff crosswind on takeoff that see's us leave the runway stage left when the tail comes up, thankfully we're in the air.
On returning to the airfield we turn off the bottom of the down wind leg to land, and half way through the turn, the stall warning goes off - Its a hooter.
We land no probs.
Ok, he say's it's normal. I accept that in the course of landing, at some point the speed must drop below that required for flight, but have the nagging feeling he was caught out, but wouldn't admit it.
Thoughts?
So I accept the offer of a jolly with a mate of mine who's got a tail-dragger of some vintage. He is fairly light on hours.
The flight is uneventful, apart from a stiff crosswind on takeoff that see's us leave the runway stage left when the tail comes up, thankfully we're in the air.
On returning to the airfield we turn off the bottom of the down wind leg to land, and half way through the turn, the stall warning goes off - Its a hooter.
We land no probs.
Ok, he say's it's normal. I accept that in the course of landing, at some point the speed must drop below that required for flight, but have the nagging feeling he was caught out, but wouldn't admit it.
Thoughts?
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The stall warner should go off several knots above the stall, so there was some margin. However that's closer to stall than I would want to be on turning downwind to base. Usually it's the base to final turn which is the slow, dangerous one. Did it go off again on the flare out?
Also bear in mind that the stall warner may not be very accurate in an old aircraft. Our's isn't - it can go off within a 15 knot range of true stall speed. In fact we have silenced it temporarily until we can get it more reliable.
Also bear in mind that the stall warner may not be very accurate in an old aircraft. Our's isn't - it can go off within a 15 knot range of true stall speed. In fact we have silenced it temporarily until we can get it more reliable.
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As Humeround pointed out, it depends on the accuracy of the stall warner. Your man might have been dangerous, or he might have been flying within the known performance of his machine.
I fly all my circuits/turns at stall speed plus about 20-30 knots. I'm very keen to make sure all my turns have so much extra speed that I can seriously screw up my turn coordination and still not spin the aeroplane. I can always slow it down with flap and/or side slip on the final approach.
Other pilot's methods may vary and still be safe, but I'll always fly fast when low as you only need to get it wrong once.
I fly all my circuits/turns at stall speed plus about 20-30 knots. I'm very keen to make sure all my turns have so much extra speed that I can seriously screw up my turn coordination and still not spin the aeroplane. I can always slow it down with flap and/or side slip on the final approach.
Other pilot's methods may vary and still be safe, but I'll always fly fast when low as you only need to get it wrong once.
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It's OK if it was corrected for. Some pilots like to run slow approaches, just above stall speed (PilotDAR on this forum I think being one proponent of them) and then a gust or slight shear can put you in the stall warning zone quite easily. It's normally just temporary and if you react accordingly, no problems.
I would probably not myself be that slow at that point in the circuit - in turns, the load factor goes up and so does the stall speed so it can be a bit close for comfort if the speed is too low. I like to carry a bit of extra speed and power-on approaches all the way down helps me make better landings and less choppy approaches.
I would probably not myself be that slow at that point in the circuit - in turns, the load factor goes up and so does the stall speed so it can be a bit close for comfort if the speed is too low. I like to carry a bit of extra speed and power-on approaches all the way down helps me make better landings and less choppy approaches.
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The point of the stall warner is, you guessed it, to warn you. If you react properly to that warning, nothing should happen.
If there's a stiff wind then there may also be turbulence (vertical gusts) about from buildings etc. This may also cause the stall warner to bleep occasionally, as such vertical gusts temporarily change the AoA of the air.
So I wouldn't worry about that stall warner going off, unless the pilot did nothing to decrease his AoA (lower the nose, increase thrust).
I would be more worried about the "stage left" takeoff. A vintage taildragger, a pilot light on hours and a stiff crosswind might not have been the best of combinations.
If there's a stiff wind then there may also be turbulence (vertical gusts) about from buildings etc. This may also cause the stall warner to bleep occasionally, as such vertical gusts temporarily change the AoA of the air.
So I wouldn't worry about that stall warner going off, unless the pilot did nothing to decrease his AoA (lower the nose, increase thrust).
I would be more worried about the "stage left" takeoff. A vintage taildragger, a pilot light on hours and a stiff crosswind might not have been the best of combinations.
Thread Starter
Thanks chaps for considering the scenario. I guess you're right in that the hooter did it's job and he flew accordingly so everything worked as advertised, so I shouldn't let it put me off.
And he did say on the ground that was his first crosswind since he got the type, so perhaps i'm being a little harsh regarding the margin in the turn - or more to the point, his dismissal of the incident.
Cheers
Ar1
And he did say on the ground that was his first crosswind since he got the type, so perhaps i'm being a little harsh regarding the margin in the turn - or more to the point, his dismissal of the incident.
Cheers
Ar1
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I've had a stall warner go off on approach in a PA-28, woke me up a bit.
It was just gusts, speed, attitude was fine but I remember well pushing down a little and opening the throttle before checking the airspeed.
Vintage taildraggers in my tiny experience are something you never completely learn, you never get complacent, you never ever stop being taught by them that they can bite. I'm still a fair way off taking up passengers in one though.
In all it's your judgement. On the one hand I've flown with people who I had doubts about up to the point where they really scared me. On the other a slightly off departure in a crosswind happens at times in taildraggers especially when you haven't yet developed a feel for the type. My question would be should one be carrying PAX though, probably not the best judgement call but I've heard of much worse attempts at departure. Nothing makes you want to be in the air like now more than a older tailwheel plane in the take-off run with a gusty crosswind.
If I had experienced either in a Cub for example as a PAX it wouldn't necessarily put me off flying with the pilot again. They are very much 'feel' aeroplanes and sometimes it's practically impossible to get useful information out of the instruments in gusty conditions and one has to fly by attitude and feel.
I'm not a professional pilot either, hopefully as a PPL who has dipped their toes in vintage tailwheel and become addicted, my thoughts are helpful from the perspective of someone with knowledge of flying as PIC but also as an at times concerned passenger. In all if you keep feeling uncomfortable at some point you'll simply stop enjoying flying with that pilot, though the reasons here are forgivable IMOH.
It was just gusts, speed, attitude was fine but I remember well pushing down a little and opening the throttle before checking the airspeed.
Vintage taildraggers in my tiny experience are something you never completely learn, you never get complacent, you never ever stop being taught by them that they can bite. I'm still a fair way off taking up passengers in one though.
In all it's your judgement. On the one hand I've flown with people who I had doubts about up to the point where they really scared me. On the other a slightly off departure in a crosswind happens at times in taildraggers especially when you haven't yet developed a feel for the type. My question would be should one be carrying PAX though, probably not the best judgement call but I've heard of much worse attempts at departure. Nothing makes you want to be in the air like now more than a older tailwheel plane in the take-off run with a gusty crosswind.
If I had experienced either in a Cub for example as a PAX it wouldn't necessarily put me off flying with the pilot again. They are very much 'feel' aeroplanes and sometimes it's practically impossible to get useful information out of the instruments in gusty conditions and one has to fly by attitude and feel.
I'm not a professional pilot either, hopefully as a PPL who has dipped their toes in vintage tailwheel and become addicted, my thoughts are helpful from the perspective of someone with knowledge of flying as PIC but also as an at times concerned passenger. In all if you keep feeling uncomfortable at some point you'll simply stop enjoying flying with that pilot, though the reasons here are forgivable IMOH.
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My stall warner goes off quite a lot in turbulence. If he seems dilligent, checks fuel, visually checks contents and briefs you etc, he's probably ok. Express your fears to him - its your life at the end of the day.
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I remember taking a colleague for his first flight, an L4 Cub. The weather was not great,bit windy, and he told me years later that he had been terrified. I had not realised, I thought he had enjoyed it
I have a fair number of hours in vintage taildraggers, and most vintage taildraggers do not have a stall warner.
I would be concerned at the stall warner going off on base leg in any type. In fact, I do not like to hear the sound of stall warner at any stage. My colleague, mentioned above, habitually flares too early, and the stall warner kicks in. I tactfully try and modify this approach, however, it is the way he continues to fly
The event mentioned by the poster does not mention approach conditions, however, if the base leg was flown into wind, and a warner sounded, then he was too slow, and not reading the flight conditions, in which case he should get some additional training/hours on type, and you should not go up again until confident that he can cope.
I have a fair number of hours in vintage taildraggers, and most vintage taildraggers do not have a stall warner.
I would be concerned at the stall warner going off on base leg in any type. In fact, I do not like to hear the sound of stall warner at any stage. My colleague, mentioned above, habitually flares too early, and the stall warner kicks in. I tactfully try and modify this approach, however, it is the way he continues to fly
The event mentioned by the poster does not mention approach conditions, however, if the base leg was flown into wind, and a warner sounded, then he was too slow, and not reading the flight conditions, in which case he should get some additional training/hours on type, and you should not go up again until confident that he can cope.
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Assuming the stall warner is adjusted correctly, it should NOT go off anytime during the base turn or the turn onto final.
You are anyway descending so unless it is a calm day there will be some wind shear, so if you are say 8kt above Vs then you can lose that margin in a flash.
There is no point in flying that slowly. The time you want to nail your final approach speed is on the short final, not on the base leg.
You are anyway descending so unless it is a calm day there will be some wind shear, so if you are say 8kt above Vs then you can lose that margin in a flash.
There is no point in flying that slowly. The time you want to nail your final approach speed is on the short final, not on the base leg.
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Fleet flyer wrote " I add 20/30 knots "above stall speed for landing and turns.
Thats a very sweeping statement !
If your aircraft stalls at 65 knts ( 1.3 stall ) = 84knts so +20knts would be OK for approach.
On the other hand in a Piper Cub or similar that stalls at 40 mph (35knts) at plus 20 kts you will float into the far hedge.
By the same token ,In the first example, if your 1G stall speed is 65 kts, you will need to be going much faster than 85kts to pull a 4g 90degree banked turn.
Thats a very sweeping statement !
If your aircraft stalls at 65 knts ( 1.3 stall ) = 84knts so +20knts would be OK for approach.
On the other hand in a Piper Cub or similar that stalls at 40 mph (35knts) at plus 20 kts you will float into the far hedge.
By the same token ,In the first example, if your 1G stall speed is 65 kts, you will need to be going much faster than 85kts to pull a 4g 90degree banked turn.
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Stall speed is a function of speed and weight. So typically, if an aircraft is half tanks and one up then Vs is usually about 5 knots less than at MAUW. I usually calculate this if I know I'm going into a short strip however if it's a gusty day I would increase V to have more aerodynamic control. The last aircraft I had, had an unusually loud stall warner that was designed to sound above cockpit noise before we all started wearing headsets.
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To those that are adding stuff on because they are talent limited I really am sorry for you.
If you are that ****e you are in the air you can't control the aircraft so you at risk of stalling if you don't add an extra 20knts onto the normal speeds why are you even solo?
And mike I know LP is a bastard with the stall warner chirping but for gawds sake do something about it. I don't have a problem with it chirping on approach but in the turn on to finals there was zero attempt at recifiying it and if you do that in any other aircraft you will get your bum bitten. And before you start spouting I have over 800 hours in those tommys (LP and ZA).
If you are that ****e you are in the air you can't control the aircraft so you at risk of stalling if you don't add an extra 20knts onto the normal speeds why are you even solo?
And mike I know LP is a bastard with the stall warner chirping but for gawds sake do something about it. I don't have a problem with it chirping on approach but in the turn on to finals there was zero attempt at recifiying it and if you do that in any other aircraft you will get your bum bitten. And before you start spouting I have over 800 hours in those tommys (LP and ZA).
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Hatzflyer et al, I add 20/30 knots through the circuit because thats what works for me in my aeroplane. I'm not surprised if it wouldn't work for you in yours unless you fly the same type as me.
I didn't say that I would fly finals at Vs+20/30, only I would turn finals at that speed. If you're happy to turn finals at Vs+10/15 knots then good for you. If you're flying an aircraft with a normal stall speed of 40 knots and you fly a normal final turn of 30 degrees, your stall speed will be 43 knots. If you're flying at 50 knots, you only have a 7 knot margin. You may never get caught out by a gust/unnoticed change it the wind direction/miscalculated aircraft weight/etc and your handling may be beyond reproach during every last turn.
I prefer to be fast whenever I'm too close to the ground to recover from a spin as I only need to be slow for the bit where I touch down.
I generally fly a 1/2 mile final from 500' and thats plenty of room to slow down sufficiently to nail my landings every time on a 380 meter farm strip.
I didn't say that I would fly finals at Vs+20/30, only I would turn finals at that speed. If you're happy to turn finals at Vs+10/15 knots then good for you. If you're flying an aircraft with a normal stall speed of 40 knots and you fly a normal final turn of 30 degrees, your stall speed will be 43 knots. If you're flying at 50 knots, you only have a 7 knot margin. You may never get caught out by a gust/unnoticed change it the wind direction/miscalculated aircraft weight/etc and your handling may be beyond reproach during every last turn.
I prefer to be fast whenever I'm too close to the ground to recover from a spin as I only need to be slow for the bit where I touch down.
I generally fly a 1/2 mile final from 500' and thats plenty of room to slow down sufficiently to nail my landings every time on a 380 meter farm strip.
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And mike I know LP is a bastard with the stall warner chirping but for gawds sake do something about it. I don't have a problem with it chirping on approach but in the turn on to finals there was zero attempt at recifiying it and if you do that in any other aircraft you will get your bum bitten.
Last edited by Mike744; 28th May 2011 at 15:28. Reason: txt addition