Cirrus SR22 G2 operating costs

[IO540]

Io i am not sure you can compare a tb20 with a cirrus, they come from different generations; you would have to compare what a new tb20 would cost today and at what rate it would depreciate. It might still do better than a cirrus for the reasons you give but it also might cost even more to make especially without any french subsidies.

One cannot compare a 2002 TB with a late model glass cockpit SR22, sure.

But I don't get your "French subsidies" comment

Re depreciation of different aircraft, I am sure the high SR22 dep is driven by a constant stream of new models. Since almost anybody with 250k will be able to stretch to 300k, etc, this quickly dumps the older stuff on the market. Products from companies which innovate[d] more slowly (like Mooney or Socata for example) show much less depreciation. Some would say this is a bad thing but you can always stick a G500 into a TB, for about 40-50k.

I think the build quality of Diamond airframes is poor and they depreciate quickly too, but I don't think the build quality if SR22s is particularly poor. Not as good as a TB but no real issues either. So the depreciation of SR22s has to be driven mostly by the new model output.

[Fuji Abound]

IO550

My comment about Socata and state subsidies was no more than that; I presume that Socata has received some subsidies from the French government over the years as the French government are pretty good at looking after their own. Nothing wrong with that.

Your views about the factors that drive the market are interesting. I agree that the numerous innovations Cirrus has introduced has encouraged those able to do so to "upgrade" to their latest offering although I think the gap between a top end Cirrus and a turbo prop may be too small.

However I guess the point I was seeking to make is that a TB20 fitted with similiar "technology" couldnt be produced for much less than a Cirrus and in reality would almost certainly cost more. I dont believe that Cirrus are hugely profitering and I do believe they have done a pretty good job at enjoying what economies of scale they could. Therefore to compare like with like we would need to understand what a TB20 would sell for new today and how a TB20 would depreciate compared with a Cirrus. I think for the reasons you have given a TB20 would be more expensive but the depreciation would be a little slower. I also think that the depreciation on a new aircraft has accelerated enormously over the last few years. You know as well as I there are all sorts of reasons for this, which are not only limited to the "recession". I think it is fair to say that it is a "buyers" market and until we have a clearer idea where EASA could lead us, how long we will be able to go on putting lead in Avgas etc., things are not going to change any time soon.

[IO540]

I don't know if Socata got subsidies, but if they had, their pricing was not out of line at the time - £200k+VAT for a TB20GT with all the factory options. The TB21 was £260k+V.

If anything they were too pricey, and the overpriced lower models (TB10 etc) didn't really sell after about 1985. A TB10 was 150k but a C172 was 120k at the time.

There is still a big gap between a new SR22 and a Jetprop based on a later-model (but still used) PA46 airframe which will cost you about $1.2M ($1.7M new, currently). Plus VAT of course.

Mind you, the Cessna 400 comes awfully close at $800k, with performance figures which cannot be realised without a great deal of oxygen. I really think they are too close to a Jetprop which is way more capable.

There are probably loads of reasons for the Cirrus depreciation:

- new models constantly coming out
- market flooded with used ones
- a dislike of "plastic planes" among many pilots (GA, especially US, is very conservative)
- bad press on safety (probably unjustified given the numbers sold)
- bad press on any prangs (lots of people love to see a Cirrus crash, because the chute is seen as "unfair" by a load of old codgers)
- the current economic climate

Towards the end of production in 2003 or so, Socata did jack up their prices a lot, with a 20% rise for 2003, from 2002.

I don't think avgas is an issue as yet because there are no avtur alternatives below the $1M+ level that would be considered proven enough for going anywhere seriously. Also avgas will never go away in the USA, until there is a "100UL" fuel done and dusted.

I have often posted my views on glass cockpit avionics (especially the old Avidyne stuff) and going to far corners of Europe

[A and C]

Build Quality

I have to take issue with IO540 on the Diamond build quality issue, the main problem is that almost all the peope who look after GRP aircraraft don't know the first thing about maintenance of GRP structures resulting is very poor minor repairs this might result in the impression that the structure is not very sound, bigger repairs that could be done in the UK are going back to the factory and so pushing up the cost because most UK maintenance companys dont have the skill to work on GRP.

The Cirrus structure is not very advanced and by European standards weighs a bit too much but it is sound.

The situation regarding major repair is under review at Diamond and it is looking as if they will have a two types of service centre soon, those who can do the basic maintenance (most of the UK industry) and those who can do major composite repairs.

If you have a major problem with a Cirrus the best thing to do would be to talk to Cirrus UK they will point you towards companies that can fix Composite structures......... and it is unlikely to be any of the usual maintenance suspects.

[IO540]

The Diamond build quality is only partly the composite (you must have seen whole wings having to be scrapped because the gelcoat bubbled up); it is the numerous metal parts which are poorly plated and rust rapidly.

[A and C]

What!!!!!!!!!

Whole wing scrapped because of bubbled gel coat ???????

I would have to take view of the corroded bits but on the whole we would replace or fix them.

IO540 I don't doubt for one second that you are telling the truth but to me it just underlines the lack of GRP repair skill within the industry.

As for a bubbled gel coat I dont think that it is to much of a problem.

I know for sure of one Diamond aircraft that was writen off (I think at Shoreham) that we could have fixed without any problems at all.

[wsmempson]

I'm also told my my insurance broker that Cirrii are viewed with quite a degree of circumspection from their side, with talk of pretty hefty excesses.

[IO540]

Yes; a report went round in mid-2010 of a UK insurer upping the excess on Cirrus insurance from ~ 3k to ~ 15k, immediately after a UK chute pull.

The appearance and timing of this suggested that the insurer thought that the particular pilot could have done something smarter.

A&C - the gelcoat issues were not from new; they appeared after some time. If this was my plane, I would be concerned about how far down the defective composite was.

[A and C]

It's not to hard to get under the gel coat and have a look at the structure, the problem is putting the gel coat back on! but we do this on almost every repair we do so it is not out of the question, you just have to know how.

The Cirrus Chute deployment is an interesting one having looked at the aircraft it is little dammaged and the AAIB assisted by one of the better players in the avionic business could not find anything wrong with the aircraft. the balance of probabilitys would say this was a lack of pilot skill that started the problem and it could have ended in the death of all aboard had the guy not had the nouse to deploy the chute. I say this with some caution as only those on in the aircraft at the time know the whole story.

[IO540]

I hope the avionics were scrapped.