N-Reg trustee International Air Services - any experience?
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Interesting post...
As an aside, how does the FAA find out? Presumably only if the Trustee tells them.
This came up on the other thread, regarding Graham Hill, whose N-reg Aztec had at some point become de-registered. I thought it was possibly caused by somebody in the Hill camp applying to the FAA for an Export CofA (but not preceeding with it) but now that you mention it it could have simply been a non-payment of the trust fee followed by a lack of communication.
When the Trust is not renewed, the aircraft reverts back to the non American owner. When there is a non American owner, the FAA de-registeres the aircraft
This came up on the other thread, regarding Graham Hill, whose N-reg Aztec had at some point become de-registered. I thought it was possibly caused by somebody in the Hill camp applying to the FAA for an Export CofA (but not preceeding with it) but now that you mention it it could have simply been a non-payment of the trust fee followed by a lack of communication.
Last edited by peterh337; 21st Jun 2012 at 07:38.
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Surely this is now sorted by the expiring Certificate of Registration?
Trust not renewed, C of R eventually expires, aircraft de-registered automatically.
As I recall, the purpose of the expiring C of R was to weed out aircraft that should have been de-registered but no-one bothered. I guess many of those were aircraft involved in trusts.
Trust not renewed, C of R eventually expires, aircraft de-registered automatically.
As I recall, the purpose of the expiring C of R was to weed out aircraft that should have been de-registered but no-one bothered. I guess many of those were aircraft involved in trusts.
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I think you will find that the vast majority of those aircraft were in the bog standard US GA fleet, scrapped over the past 5-6 decades, but never de-registered.
The US GA scene is huge (much bigger than the rest of the world combined) and nearly all of it is simply privately owned.
A very small % of the N-reg fleet is under trusts.
The US GA scene is huge (much bigger than the rest of the world combined) and nearly all of it is simply privately owned.
A very small % of the N-reg fleet is under trusts.
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About three years ago the FAA undertook a massive exercise to sanitise the data base. They had so many aeroplanes on the register, the vast majority of which had been scrapped/sold but not de-registered. As Peter highlights, this over at least 50 years. My understanding is that the exercise has been completed, however I am sure some anomolies will still exist.
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What are the relevant dates of this correspondence?
It is true that a Trustee can prevent you selling the plane. There is no way to protect yourself from that, and there is no way to take out insurance against it.
It is true that a Trustee can prevent you selling the plane. There is no way to protect yourself from that, and there is no way to take out insurance against it.
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Yes there is.
You ensure that the Trustee signs a bill of sale selling the plane back to you and leave it undated.
Any problems with the Trustee and you date the bill of sale and send it to the FAA whilst arranging a new trustee.
You ensure that the Trustee signs a bill of sale selling the plane back to you and leave it undated.
Any problems with the Trustee and you date the bill of sale and send it to the FAA whilst arranging a new trustee.
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You ensure that the Trustee signs a bill of sale selling the plane back to you and leave it undated.
I suppose that if you get one, privately, they have no way of knowing you've got one...
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Out of Interest, what has happened to the aircraft? Are all the issues sorted and it's now flying?
I guess there are always two sides to every story. I was sent an email from IAS, I copy below part of the content.
I guess there are always two sides to every story. I was sent an email from IAS, I copy below part of the content.
The fact is that Axxxxxx, having decided to sell his airplane, decided he did not have to pay for his Trust in spite of 3 invoices. After nearly 6 months in arrears, I simply informed the FAA in writing that our company was no longer responsible for Axxxxx's aircraft as Trustee. The FAA than de-registered the aircraft just as they do when you do not pay the FAA their $5.00.
Southern has de-registered airplanes in the past and informed the FAA that it is to be exported to the U.K. and other countries. I did not do that. If I had, the FAA would have wired the CAA that the aircraft was de-registered for registration with the CAA. It would have created a technical invalidation of the airworthiness certificate. And if I had, Axxxxx would have had to involve the CAA because the FAA would have required the CAA to inform the FAA that the aircraft was not registered by the CAA. Axxxxx just guessed that is what I must have done.
After the FAA de-registered the aircraft, Axxxx wrote a bill of sale FAA form 8050-2. I knew the FAA would not accept that because their was no bill of sale form from IAS to Axxxxx.
Axxxxx said that if I insisted that he pay his past due amount on his Trust, that he would pass bad information about my services to my clients. It was after that threat when I resigned from being his Trustee and informed the FAA that I was no longer responsible.
Axxxxxx could pay a FAA title company and get a copy of the letter I wrote in which I stated that I resigned and the aircraft no longer met the citizenship requirements.
After Axxxxx paid, I issued a bill of statement to him as he already issued one to an American corporation to complete the required FAA chain of title.
I talked to my lawyer, my lawyer said to give him a bill for his advice but I did not.
I informed Axxxxxxxxx in writing in advance of doing so that failure to pay his Trust invoice would result in my resigning and in his aircraft being de-registered. He wrote me that I could go ahead and de-register his aircraft as he was not going to pay his invoice even when I put in writing that he need pay no late fees or anything else, just his 245 GBP. He refused in writing to pay.
Southern has de-registered airplanes in the past and informed the FAA that it is to be exported to the U.K. and other countries. I did not do that. If I had, the FAA would have wired the CAA that the aircraft was de-registered for registration with the CAA. It would have created a technical invalidation of the airworthiness certificate. And if I had, Axxxxx would have had to involve the CAA because the FAA would have required the CAA to inform the FAA that the aircraft was not registered by the CAA. Axxxxx just guessed that is what I must have done.
After the FAA de-registered the aircraft, Axxxx wrote a bill of sale FAA form 8050-2. I knew the FAA would not accept that because their was no bill of sale form from IAS to Axxxxx.
Axxxxx said that if I insisted that he pay his past due amount on his Trust, that he would pass bad information about my services to my clients. It was after that threat when I resigned from being his Trustee and informed the FAA that I was no longer responsible.
Axxxxxx could pay a FAA title company and get a copy of the letter I wrote in which I stated that I resigned and the aircraft no longer met the citizenship requirements.
After Axxxxx paid, I issued a bill of statement to him as he already issued one to an American corporation to complete the required FAA chain of title.
I talked to my lawyer, my lawyer said to give him a bill for his advice but I did not.
I informed Axxxxxxxxx in writing in advance of doing so that failure to pay his Trust invoice would result in my resigning and in his aircraft being de-registered. He wrote me that I could go ahead and de-register his aircraft as he was not going to pay his invoice even when I put in writing that he need pay no late fees or anything else, just his 245 GBP. He refused in writing to pay.
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I guess there are always two sides to every story. I was sent an email from IAS, I copy below part of the content.
I have found IAS, easy to deal with, and as I stated earlier, does what it says on the tin
Last edited by maxred; 10th Jul 2012 at 15:11.
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Out of interest anyone have any ideas about the Trustee services offered by Robert Weaver of Skyferry, he claims to have twenty aircraft in trust yet a search of the FAA database shows no mention of him or his company?
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A couple of hundred other pilots Trust IAS, some with private companies that IAS offers. And a couple of people who vent their spleen in public merely because they do not like to pay their bills is not the rule.
Last edited by freedomoftheair; 23rd Jul 2012 at 20:34.
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Freedomoftheair - my thoughts as well. You have always done what you have said, no one could ask any more than that.
My question really relates to the Trust scheme Weaver claims to run?
Here is a bit of free publicity for Weaver!!
My question really relates to the Trust scheme Weaver claims to run?
Here is a bit of free publicity for Weaver!!
21/03/2012: Today marks the day of our 20th aircraft that has been placed in our N reg Trustee Service for owners and operators outside the US who wish to maintain their aircraft on the American register whilst operating outside of the US as a non US citizen, or organisation. Our simple and fair price Trustee services could also be of use to you on your next N reg purchase or registration transfer
N Reg Trustee
Are you looking at buying an American (N) registered aircraft? The United States has more aircraft manufacturers and available pre-owned aircraft for sale than any other country in the world, add the favourable exchange rate between the GBP/Euro over the USD and it is clear to see that you can get much more for your money.
Keeping you aircraft on N register also allows you to exercise your FAA licenses and ratings in your aircraft in your country of operation, operating costs are also usually cheaper compared with JAR registered aircraft.
Unfortunately to accept ownership and title of a US registered aircraft you must be a US Citizen or permanent resident (FAR 47.2), for non US Citizens or firms the easiest way to comply with this law is to employ a US registered trustee to take legal responsibility for your aircraft whilst you act as the beneficiary, which now allows you to own and operate the aircraft, indeed the trustee is just a legal clause to allow you to do this. We offer this service which allows you to own and operate your aircraft without violating federal laws. As a reputable and well established ferry firm we can also assist in delivery, please contact us for a free no obligation quote.
With our legal knowledge and understanding of how to import your aircraft, we keep everything legal whist complying with federal and local laws. It is vital when selecting a Trustee / Holding service that you use a company that complys with the required regulations, we have seen and continute to see, registration certificates revoked and beneficiarys violated, for this reason alone don't leave it to "Uncle Sam" to look after your asset, use a reputable and protected (Ltd or LLC) registered Trustee/Holding firm such as Sky Ferry.
Hot Topic Questions
Q: Can I transfer the title when I sell my aircraft?
A: Yes, we charge £500GBP for this service unless stated.
Q: I have a US friend / family member, can they act as Trustee?
A: Remember we act as a legally bound Trustee, is your acting friend or family member protected against limited liability, also do they have in depth legal knowledge, and finally are you willing to take that risk with your investment?
Are you looking at buying an American (N) registered aircraft? The United States has more aircraft manufacturers and available pre-owned aircraft for sale than any other country in the world, add the favourable exchange rate between the GBP/Euro over the USD and it is clear to see that you can get much more for your money.
Keeping you aircraft on N register also allows you to exercise your FAA licenses and ratings in your aircraft in your country of operation, operating costs are also usually cheaper compared with JAR registered aircraft.
Unfortunately to accept ownership and title of a US registered aircraft you must be a US Citizen or permanent resident (FAR 47.2), for non US Citizens or firms the easiest way to comply with this law is to employ a US registered trustee to take legal responsibility for your aircraft whilst you act as the beneficiary, which now allows you to own and operate the aircraft, indeed the trustee is just a legal clause to allow you to do this. We offer this service which allows you to own and operate your aircraft without violating federal laws. As a reputable and well established ferry firm we can also assist in delivery, please contact us for a free no obligation quote.
With our legal knowledge and understanding of how to import your aircraft, we keep everything legal whist complying with federal and local laws. It is vital when selecting a Trustee / Holding service that you use a company that complys with the required regulations, we have seen and continute to see, registration certificates revoked and beneficiarys violated, for this reason alone don't leave it to "Uncle Sam" to look after your asset, use a reputable and protected (Ltd or LLC) registered Trustee/Holding firm such as Sky Ferry.
Hot Topic Questions
Q: Can I transfer the title when I sell my aircraft?
A: Yes, we charge £500GBP for this service unless stated.
Q: I have a US friend / family member, can they act as Trustee?
A: Remember we act as a legally bound Trustee, is your acting friend or family member protected against limited liability, also do they have in depth legal knowledge, and finally are you willing to take that risk with your investment?
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Support For IAS
Having known and done business with Bob Garretson since 2001 I know who I believe.
If a client refused to settle a legitimate invoice for a paltry £275 then I would suggest it was not unreasonable for IAS to withdraw their services.
Threats to blacken someone's reputation on a web site such as pprune should be seen for what they are.
As someone else said, with Bob you get what says on the tin.
American trust services at a fraction of the cost of his competitors.
Pay your money, take your choice.
If a client refused to settle a legitimate invoice for a paltry £275 then I would suggest it was not unreasonable for IAS to withdraw their services.
Threats to blacken someone's reputation on a web site such as pprune should be seen for what they are.
As someone else said, with Bob you get what says on the tin.
American trust services at a fraction of the cost of his competitors.
Pay your money, take your choice.
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I have my PA28-181 with Southern Aircraft Consultancy
I found their service to be excellent especially in light of the airplane being in New Jersey, SAC in Norfolk, me in Barbados and of course the FAA in OK City - they coordinated everything including my 'radio station licence' (don't forget that!)
All in all a painless experience - they even send out alerts for problems - got one last week giving a reminder/warning about the Olympic's exclusion zone - some poor guy wandered into it it would seem - not comething I am going to do but a nice bit of customer care and I am sure very timely and valuable to those flying in the region.
I did look at using other firms for my trust but response times were long - Faith at SAC responded immediately even though she was on holiday at time - the wonder that is the Blackberry I suspect.
I found their service to be excellent especially in light of the airplane being in New Jersey, SAC in Norfolk, me in Barbados and of course the FAA in OK City - they coordinated everything including my 'radio station licence' (don't forget that!)
All in all a painless experience - they even send out alerts for problems - got one last week giving a reminder/warning about the Olympic's exclusion zone - some poor guy wandered into it it would seem - not comething I am going to do but a nice bit of customer care and I am sure very timely and valuable to those flying in the region.
I did look at using other firms for my trust but response times were long - Faith at SAC responded immediately even though she was on holiday at time - the wonder that is the Blackberry I suspect.
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[QUOTE][
Sadly, it didn't get me out of paying California use tax/QUOTE]
Shoulda put a Vegas P.O. Box on the bill of sale, no point paying California "use" tax if you ain't gonna "use" it in California
Sadly, it didn't get me out of paying California use tax/QUOTE]
Shoulda put a Vegas P.O. Box on the bill of sale, no point paying California "use" tax if you ain't gonna "use" it in California
