Reaching fuel cocks

[thing]

The 172 that I'm training in has an original fit four point harness. It's not inertia reel but the old fashioned tug the straps and make them tight type. If I do up the straps to a comfortable tightness I can't reach the fuel cock.

I don't sit miles from the controls, I like to have a good knee bend with my feet on the pedals, I'm 5' 11 and my arms as far as I know are normally proportioned for one of my height. If I loosen off the shoulder straps to their full extent then I can reach, but that rather negates the idea of having shoulder straps. It's my first a/c, do all a/c have similar quirks? It seems a bit odd that Cessna would put the fuel cock where it can't be reached.

I seem to remember that John Denver died because he couldn't reach the fuel cock in his a/c.

[Pilot DAR]

I suggest that generally, the portions of the flight for which it is prudent to have your shoulder harness snugged right up (takeoff, landing, and impending crash), would generally not be occasions where seleting fuel tanks is vital. I conceed that it could be prudent to switch off the fuel just before a crash, and you're already snugged up, and cannot. It's not perfect.

The 172, like most legacy GA aircraft, was designed long before shoulder harnesses were considered a worthwhile addition. Therefore the mutual exlusiveness of the shoulder harness, and fuel selector, probably just was not considered.

Wait 'till you fly an earlier 172/182, or 180/185 with manual flaps, you'll be reaching down there regularly then!

Shoulder harnesses can be left a little free, as long as you snug them at the right times, don't worry too much about this....

Yes, I have also heard that the John Denver's accident was control location related, but remind yourself that he was flying an amature built aircraft, and therefore that aircraft had not demonstrated design compliance with requirements for cockpit features. The 172 certainly has. Certified aircraft have met all the applicable design requirements, including those "little things" like fuel selector position. Amature airraft, though potentially very good aircraft, may not meet those requirements. The pilot is therefore more "on their own" to figure things out.

[wsmempson]

I've had the same problem when flying a 172. Now I own a Piper Saratoga, and never seem to have any trouble reaching my cock; perhaps it's the inertia reel seatbelts?

[Piper.Classique]

Now I own a Piper Saratoga, and never seem to have any trouble reaching my cock;

[IO540]

wsmempson - that may be quite important if you get slightly hypoxic

[thing]

WS- do you have any pictures of it and it's location?

[IO540]

One instructor, who had to disappear rather quickly c. 2003, explained to me a major benefit of the location of the PA28 fuel cock, when a lady student with a short skirt was being trained.

[thing]

We get girls turning up for glider trips in short skirts, there's always a queue to help them on with the 'chute.

[BackPacker]

If I do up the straps to a comfortable tightness I can't reach the fuel cock.

I fly aerobatics with a five-point harness and there's a little knack to tightening them properly.

What you need to remember is that the primary function of the harness is to keep your pelvis firmly in the seat during any type of maneuver. A secondary function is to keep your upper body restrained during a crash.

So you start with the bits that form the lap belt. These need to be done tight. Second is the crotch strap, if present, which also needs to be done tight.

Only then do you need to do the shoulder belts, and these can be relatively loose. One or two centimeters on the "loose" side of "snug" is typically enough. If you're not sure, you can always tighten them upon landing. But I've never had the need for really tight shoulder straps during aerobatics.

When worn this way, I can reach each and every control, knob and lever without difficulty, even when inverted. And for a PA28-style or C172-style fuel cock you can easily slip off one or two shoulder straps, move the knob and slip them on again, without needing to adjust them.

I have often seen people in four-point and five-point harnesses which were done up improperly, leading to the situation where the buckle was at the level of their sternum. Very uncomfortable, and incredibly dangerous during a crash.

[DX Wombat]

The real advantage of the Cessna fuel cock is that it is in a far more sensible place than the PA28 etc. If you have a passenger you can always ask them to turn it off whilst you concentrate on flying the aircraft. (Remembering to tell them to tighten the safety belt when done).You can't do this with the daft positioning in the PA aircraft. (I also hate the single door idea.) I cannot fly a PA28 without a FI or safety pilot who can fly the aircraft whilst I grovel about as I cannot reach the fuel cock, but the C152 is fine (not tried a 172/182).
Great aircraft the Cessnas - two doors, accessible fuel cock, windows which you can leave open in flight, great heater in winter, cool air in summer, etc and the wings are in the right place.

[thing]

Thanks for the (few..) constructive replies. Backpacker I always do my lap straps up as low as poss, they're almost over the tops of my legs. I'm used to four and five pointers in gliders although I must say even with tight straps I've never had a problem reaching anything in a glider, but then the seating position is different.

I've already figured out that two quick tugs (leave it out WS, I've already thought of that one...)in an emergency will tighten them up so I fly with them as loose as I need to reach the tank selector. It just seemed a poor layout to me but if as you say it's fairly common then so be it.

Wombat we have a 28 at the club but I'm not that bothered about flying it for the reasons you mention. One door seems a bit lunatic to me but then I suppose I'll get checked out on it one day.

[Pilot DAR]

WS- do you have any pictures of it and it's location?

It'll be depicted in the flight manual.

[thing]

It's OK Dar, it was a Brit humour response to WS....

[FlyingKiwi_73]

DX Wombat come on mate reaching the fuel cock on a PA28 is easy.

You trim the A/C take a good look out, reach down bump the yoke as you go (inwards of course) change tanks, sit back up and ask 'Where'd all that ground come form'

[DX Wombat]

One is not of the suicidal persuasion Kiwi.

[Pilot DAR]

it was a Brit humour response to WS....

Yup, I got it! We Canadians get some Brit humour. We train on Monty Python and the like.....