what would you do in this emergency scenerio?
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what would you do in this emergency scenerio?
I have been studying as part of my ground training various emergency scenarios. I came up with this one and wanted to run it by the forum and see what others would do:
You are flying at 3500 feet MSL below the local class B in a Cessna 152. You see a flock of birds ahead. Before you can even begin to think of a reaction, two birds strike your aircraft. One grazes the top and takes out your com antenna, and one hits the right wing and does enough damage to crack the right fuel tank. You now have no communications radio and have a serious fuel leak that you cannot control (there is no fuel tank selector in the 152, only a master on/off valve). You squawk 7700 but have no idea if your transponder is working either. You have no way to talk to ATC and they very well may be unable to see you on their radar, at least not able to see your transponder data.
The closest airport by a long shot is a busy commercial controlled airport. You are fairly certain that you can make a runway even if your engine quits right now.
Do you:
a. Land at the controlled airport unannounced and pray that you don't hit anybody? Perhaps try to land on a taxiway? Maybe ATC picked you up on primary radar and warned the field? Most likely not. Remember this is all happening very quickly and relatively near the airport.
b. Try to find an off-airport place to land..a road or a field, and set up on it, hoping for the best?
You know that as long as you don't hit anybody, your chances of walking away alive or at least not seriously injured from the airport are a lot higher than if you make an off-airport landing. At the same time, you know that if you land at the airport, there is a chance that you will be instantly killed in a mid-air or even something on the ground, and that you would be dragging maybe as many as 200 innocent people into the risk scenario.
What would you do?
While the exact circumstances I describe here may not be very likely, the chance of having to consider going into a controlled field un-announced in general is small yet finite.
You are flying at 3500 feet MSL below the local class B in a Cessna 152. You see a flock of birds ahead. Before you can even begin to think of a reaction, two birds strike your aircraft. One grazes the top and takes out your com antenna, and one hits the right wing and does enough damage to crack the right fuel tank. You now have no communications radio and have a serious fuel leak that you cannot control (there is no fuel tank selector in the 152, only a master on/off valve). You squawk 7700 but have no idea if your transponder is working either. You have no way to talk to ATC and they very well may be unable to see you on their radar, at least not able to see your transponder data.
The closest airport by a long shot is a busy commercial controlled airport. You are fairly certain that you can make a runway even if your engine quits right now.
Do you:
a. Land at the controlled airport unannounced and pray that you don't hit anybody? Perhaps try to land on a taxiway? Maybe ATC picked you up on primary radar and warned the field? Most likely not. Remember this is all happening very quickly and relatively near the airport.
b. Try to find an off-airport place to land..a road or a field, and set up on it, hoping for the best?
You know that as long as you don't hit anybody, your chances of walking away alive or at least not seriously injured from the airport are a lot higher than if you make an off-airport landing. At the same time, you know that if you land at the airport, there is a chance that you will be instantly killed in a mid-air or even something on the ground, and that you would be dragging maybe as many as 200 innocent people into the risk scenario.
What would you do?
While the exact circumstances I describe here may not be very likely, the chance of having to consider going into a controlled field un-announced in general is small yet finite.
Last edited by Plasmech; 3rd Mar 2011 at 22:27.
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I'd certainly go into the major airport unannounced.
Most likely my squwak would be received by the controller, so they'd have a fair idea what was happening.
Even if it wasn't they'd most likely see me on primary radar.
Even if they didn't, I'd be pretty confident that I'd be able to visually seperate myself from other traffic. Sure it might involved someone else having to go around suddenly when I turn onto final at 1/2 mile, but I don't very much that I'd hit anyone.
There might also be something to be gained by flying cross controlled, to keep the damaged wing high to stop the fuel flowing out of it.
I don't fancy the idea of an off field landing in a damaged aircraft, with fuel leaking out, and not able to put out a mayday call.
The chances of a mid air seem remote to me if you keep your eyes open. Most of the traffic is likely to be very large and easy to spot.
dp
Most likely my squwak would be received by the controller, so they'd have a fair idea what was happening.
Even if it wasn't they'd most likely see me on primary radar.
Even if they didn't, I'd be pretty confident that I'd be able to visually seperate myself from other traffic. Sure it might involved someone else having to go around suddenly when I turn onto final at 1/2 mile, but I don't very much that I'd hit anyone.
There might also be something to be gained by flying cross controlled, to keep the damaged wing high to stop the fuel flowing out of it.
I don't fancy the idea of an off field landing in a damaged aircraft, with fuel leaking out, and not able to put out a mayday call.
The chances of a mid air seem remote to me if you keep your eyes open. Most of the traffic is likely to be very large and easy to spot.
dp
I think that would land anywhere other than the busy commercial field if I was VFR unless my destination was the busy field and I was already in communication with it when other options might come into play.
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You squawk 7700 but have no idea if your transponder is working either.
You have no way to talk to ATC
a. Land at the controlled airport unannounced
Controlled airports have mostly ILS or similar straight-in approaches starting 6+ miles out. So you can join a circuit relatively safely, start circling on downwind with all the lights flashing, and hope you get light signals from the tower.
Also, most commercial traffic on a straight-in approach will fly relatively slowly (at least not doing 250+ knots), on the extended centerline and display all their landing lights so from downwind you can see them and time your arrival pretty well. In fact, you could slot in between Mr. Boeing and Mr. Airbus and they'd never know you're there. As long as you manage to avoid their wake turbulence, that is. But there are tricks for that (three whites for instance).
I wonder what the legal (FAA or European equivalent) implications would be if you made a landing like that and nobody got hurt?
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I wonder what the legal (FAA or European equivalent) implications would be if you made a landing like that and nobody got hurt?
If you're confident your airframe is sound and you've got many minutes' fuel do a normal non-radio join (ignore any red lights or fireworks and just land). Otherwise go straight for the runway.
At my local airfield one would then be met by the fire engine at the nearest intersection. (Mind you, I do wonder whether the fire crew get bored and like driving around for practice, they've been out twice for me (that I've noticed) when I really didn't need them.)
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BackPacker,
As far as Com 2, a cell phone, and the transponder being on the belly...the point of my scenario was a no ATC forced landing. I was thinking about about disclaiming out Com 2 and the antenna however I didn't think it was necessary.
As far as Com 2, a cell phone, and the transponder being on the belly...the point of my scenario was a no ATC forced landing. I was thinking about about disclaiming out Com 2 and the antenna however I didn't think it was necessary.
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At my local airfield one would then be met by the fire engine at the nearest intersection. (Mind you, I do wonder whether the fire crew get bored and like driving around for practice, they've been out twice for me (that I've noticed) when I really didn't need them.)
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Do tell about the arsonists (a USA joke) errrr I mean firefighters being out to greet you.
You are flying at 3500 feet MSL below the local class B in a Cessna 152. You see a flock of birds ahead. Before you can even begin to think of a reaction, two birds strike your aircraft. One grazes the top and takes out your com antenna, and one hits the right wing and does enough damage to crack the right fuel tank. You now have no communications radio and have a serious fuel leak that you cannot control (there is no fuel tank selector in the 152, only a master on/off valve). You squawk 7700 but have no idea if your transponder is working either. You have no way to talk to ATC and they very well may be unable to see you on their radar, at least not able to see your transponder data.
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...4_P_028_en.pdf
While that circular covers multi engine airplanes, it does include some details on birdstrikes in the UK. The vast majority occur below 500'.
Do you not use light signals in the UK? Can you not obtain a landing clearance using light signals? Is the loss of the radio a big deal after all?
You know that as long as you don't hit anybody, your chances of walking away alive or at least not seriously injured from the airport are a lot higher than if you make an off-airport landing. At the same time, you know that if you land at the airport, there is a chance that you will be instantly killed in a mid-air or even something on the ground, and that you would be dragging maybe as many as 200 innocent people into the risk scenario.
You're in an airplane. You need to go to an airport, and land. You don't have a fire. You don't have a major emergency. You're losing a little fuel. You have a good engine. You have enough fuel to reach a runway. You can obtain visual signals for landing. You go to the airport and land. Not exactly rocket science.
Why not invoke meteorite strikes, falling chickens, and geysers? No nuclear weapons, attacks of flying ants, or inflight strokes? It must be a slow day.
Alternately land on a road. Or in a field. Again, it's just not a big deal. If you're not sure, then make a precautionary landing, and evaluate what you've got. Whether you proceed to a runway and land, or pick a straight stretch of road or an open field or parking lot, either way, you're covered. You've got a place to land, you can do it safely, you've got engine power available. Just do it.
If you've got fuel leaking, is it going to contact something that will promote a fire? Should you consider shutting off your electrical? Is this really a big deal at all? No.
Be glad you didn't share the cockpit with the bird.
Don't try to overthink the situation. You've got a flyable airplane and you're in good health. You don't have a pressing emergency. You have an abnormal situation for which you'd like to land, and you can investigate it further once you're on the ground and stopped. Go do that.
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I have come to the conclusion that there are a few bad apples in this bunch, mixed in with a lot of good ones.
...the point of the post was to explore a scenario where one as no coms and has to land at a controlled airport. OK? The idea is not to discuss the circumstances leading to not having any coms. Yea, it may have been one of those soft birds
or maybe this particular Cessna 152 has a magic carpet in the cabin that can be called upon to fly in an emergency. Yea maybe the transponder still works, but maybe it doesn't. The point is not to discuss all that stuff that has no relevance to the post.
Looking at a lot of your other posts on this forum, I can clearly see what your MO is. Argue, argue, argue, take the opposing side by default, rebut rebut rebut. "Ridicule" anything that resembles a commonly known "fact" and tell us how it really is because you're the only one on earth smart enough to know how it really is. I know your type. Dime a dozen.
...the point of the post was to explore a scenario where one as no coms and has to land at a controlled airport. OK? The idea is not to discuss the circumstances leading to not having any coms. Yea, it may have been one of those soft birds
or maybe this particular Cessna 152 has a magic carpet in the cabin that can be called upon to fly in an emergency. Yea maybe the transponder still works, but maybe it doesn't. The point is not to discuss all that stuff that has no relevance to the post.Looking at a lot of your other posts on this forum, I can clearly see what your MO is. Argue, argue, argue, take the opposing side by default, rebut rebut rebut. "Ridicule" anything that resembles a commonly known "fact" and tell us how it really is because you're the only one on earth smart enough to know how it really is. I know your type. Dime a dozen.
Last edited by Plasmech; 4th Mar 2011 at 01:16.
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Looking at a lot of your other posts on this forum, I can clearly see what your MO is. Argue, argue, argue, take the opposing side by default, rebut rebut rebut.
Don't post stupidly, and you won't catch flack.
I prefer not to need to repeat myself, but given your reading comprehension problem I'll say again; you're in an airplane. You need to go to an airport, and land. You don't have a fire. You don't have a major emergency. You're losing a little fuel. You have a good engine. You have enough fuel to reach a runway. You can obtain visual signals for landing. You go to the airport and land. Not exactly rocket science.
Silly questions
get what they deserve.
If you are near Class B they have you on radar. If you have an emergency head for the runway, they are going to keep any traffic far away from you. Remember no one else is there who is not in radio contact. If you enter the zone without being ID'd all sorts of alarms go off.
As for intentionally landing on a taxiway as opposed to a runway, that is really dumb. People entering a runway will be looking for traffic and be talking to the tower. Taxi clearances can be general and no one is going to be looking up for some yahoo. Taxi traffic could be coming from between hangers or out of the FBO and you won't see them.
Flying is a simple business and it is small details that will get you. Dreaming up silly what ifs is a waste of time.
If you are near Class B they have you on radar. If you have an emergency head for the runway, they are going to keep any traffic far away from you. Remember no one else is there who is not in radio contact. If you enter the zone without being ID'd all sorts of alarms go off.
As for intentionally landing on a taxiway as opposed to a runway, that is really dumb. People entering a runway will be looking for traffic and be talking to the tower. Taxi clearances can be general and no one is going to be looking up for some yahoo. Taxi traffic could be coming from between hangers or out of the FBO and you won't see them.
Flying is a simple business and it is small details that will get you. Dreaming up silly what ifs is a waste of time.
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Very GOOD OP mostly BAD follow ups
I would like to think that, the cicle inthe tower vacility, await any light signals.
If cell phone call 911, unless you have the yellow pages handy, and tell the dispatch what where why etc, as well as INTENTIONS.
Then assuming bowels, and fuel allow, make a precautionaly landing well down runway, and immediatly turn off runway, and exacuate aircraft, BUT remain cclose as not to draw the attention of the SWAT tream that will be on you.
In an emergency, you will be lauded for saving all on board, and not crashing into a school, or shopping mall.
Just my fills worth.
glf
If cell phone call 911, unless you have the yellow pages handy, and tell the dispatch what where why etc, as well as INTENTIONS.
Then assuming bowels, and fuel allow, make a precautionaly landing well down runway, and immediatly turn off runway, and exacuate aircraft, BUT remain cclose as not to draw the attention of the SWAT tream that will be on you.
In an emergency, you will be lauded for saving all on board, and not crashing into a school, or shopping mall.
Just my fills worth.
glf
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Sounds to me like you think life is a bit like holywood
, would this scenario you are working on involve someone like, lets see, Tom Cruz and a lovely scared babe (insert your own choice there
i would choose Rosamund Pike) and he does an amazing job when all the chips are down. They land to a triumphant fanfare and BIG White smiles all round, probably wearing a cool pair of Aviators, said lovely babe looking on with admiration, they then go and get into bed somewhere and all is well again in lala land
.
Keep up with the training and you will find out that aviation has many built in redundancies. So this scenario is less likely to happen than you winning enough money on the lottery to pay for a new lear jet!
PG.
, would this scenario you are working on involve someone like, lets see, Tom Cruz and a lovely scared babe (insert your own choice there i would choose Rosamund Pike) and he does an amazing job when all the chips are down. They land to a triumphant fanfare and BIG White smiles all round, probably wearing a cool pair of Aviators, said lovely babe looking on with admiration, they then go and get into bed somewhere and all is well again in lala land. Keep up with the training and you will find out that aviation has many built in redundancies. So this scenario is less likely to happen than you winning enough money on the lottery to pay for a new lear jet!
PG.
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If you have enough fuel and the aeroplane is still flyable etc, then on suspecting a radio and transponder fail you could use the emergency triangle procedure to give ATC a clue as to what has happened. OK, technically you're supposed to be lost as well for that, but it's pretty much your only means of communication if you're out of sight of the tower. Once you near the airport you can use switching of your nav and lading lights to indicate that you are compelled to land. I'm assuming that these signals are valid everywhere.
In terms of the lawyers, in the UK departure from the rules of the air is permitted for the avoidance of imminent danger, provided that written details are provided to the competent authority within 10 days (article 160 of the ANO).
In terms of the lawyers, in the UK departure from the rules of the air is permitted for the avoidance of imminent danger, provided that written details are provided to the competent authority within 10 days (article 160 of the ANO).
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All plasmech is doing is trying to see the process other people would take in a given situation. I guess the situation could have been summed up by saying electrical failure, fuel leak, decide. But we are pilots. Our tales we tell have only 10% truth and 90% pure bull to make it more exciting!
Anyway. I would fly as high as you can, and lean it out to give me a bit more time, and if possible, go for the overhead to make the join a little more announced, or join the most expeditious way depending on how much time I felt I had.
Clearly, 7600ing, RADAR should be doing its magic, phones and what not.
In an emergency, do what YOU believe to be the safest course of action for you, not what other people believe is your safest course of action.
Anyway. I would fly as high as you can, and lean it out to give me a bit more time, and if possible, go for the overhead to make the join a little more announced, or join the most expeditious way depending on how much time I felt I had.
Clearly, 7600ing, RADAR should be doing its magic, phones and what not.
In an emergency, do what YOU believe to be the safest course of action for you, not what other people believe is your safest course of action.
Reality is:
- You've hit birds
- You're losing fuel
- You've lost Rx (you have no idea if your transmissions are being heard or not)
This is all you can possibly know. You do not know why the comms is lost, you do not know if the transponder is still working, you do not know if you took a bird or two into the engine and that's going to stop shortly. Pilots do not have magic sensors to tell them anything not visible from the cockpit.
You do know that you were talking to somebody, and squawking. So if you go quiet, and either your transponder signal vanishes, or you squawk 7700, ATC know you have a problem.
So, trust ATC sort the other traffic out, and get on the ground where there's assistance available for any subsequent problems.
So, actions, in my opinion:
- Squawk 7700
- Declare a Mayday transmitting blind
- Fly at height until you can make the runway of the major airfield if the engine quits (do not descend until then, unless forced to by weather or loss of power)
- Land at the airport. Use the runway, that's where they expect to find aeroplanes, not a taxiway which will confuse ATC and emergency services.
- Once you are on the ground, then taxi off out of anybody's way, shut down, and get out and away from the aircraft. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE AEROPLANE CAN DO WRONG NEXT.
Do not, DO NOT, worry about the law or convenience to anybody else if you are trying to preserve your own life.
Things I wouldn't do:
- Muck about with cellphones. They won't save your life, being on the ground will do that. They might distract you from flying the aeroplane.
- Fly any kind of wide circuit (pattern); once you are able to glide to the runway, stay in gliding distance all the way.
- Worry about faultfinding. You clearly have airframe damage, just get it on the ground.
- Dive or sideslip to lose height - the extra stresses may damage the airframe. Set approach speed early, and just stay there.
- Use flaps, I don't know the electrical state, I dont know if the flaps will work both sides and I don't know the extra stresses that might put on a damaged wing. Land flapless.
G
- You've hit birds
- You're losing fuel
- You've lost Rx (you have no idea if your transmissions are being heard or not)
This is all you can possibly know. You do not know why the comms is lost, you do not know if the transponder is still working, you do not know if you took a bird or two into the engine and that's going to stop shortly. Pilots do not have magic sensors to tell them anything not visible from the cockpit.
You do know that you were talking to somebody, and squawking. So if you go quiet, and either your transponder signal vanishes, or you squawk 7700, ATC know you have a problem.
So, trust ATC sort the other traffic out, and get on the ground where there's assistance available for any subsequent problems.
So, actions, in my opinion:
- Squawk 7700
- Declare a Mayday transmitting blind
- Fly at height until you can make the runway of the major airfield if the engine quits (do not descend until then, unless forced to by weather or loss of power)
- Land at the airport. Use the runway, that's where they expect to find aeroplanes, not a taxiway which will confuse ATC and emergency services.
- Once you are on the ground, then taxi off out of anybody's way, shut down, and get out and away from the aircraft. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE AEROPLANE CAN DO WRONG NEXT.
Do not, DO NOT, worry about the law or convenience to anybody else if you are trying to preserve your own life.
Things I wouldn't do:
- Muck about with cellphones. They won't save your life, being on the ground will do that. They might distract you from flying the aeroplane.
- Fly any kind of wide circuit (pattern); once you are able to glide to the runway, stay in gliding distance all the way.
- Worry about faultfinding. You clearly have airframe damage, just get it on the ground.
- Dive or sideslip to lose height - the extra stresses may damage the airframe. Set approach speed early, and just stay there.
- Use flaps, I don't know the electrical state, I dont know if the flaps will work both sides and I don't know the extra stresses that might put on a damaged wing. Land flapless.
G
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[ don't ] Use flaps, I don't know the electrical state, I dont know if the flaps will work both sides and I don't know the extra stresses that might put on a damaged wing. Land flapless
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the point of the post was to explore a scenario where one as no coms and has to land at a controlled airport.
If you can squawk 7600 so much the better. Good chance that some Area ATC will notice, phone up the uncontrolled aircraft and warn them about your imminent arrival. Always nice to know the others in the circuit are expecting you when you show up non-radio.
If there's another emergency which means you won't make it to an uncontrolled airfield, then you land. Simple.
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- Muck about with cellphones. They won't save your life, being on the ground will do that. They might distract you from flying the aeroplane.
But if your cellphone is nearby and you happen to have the tower/operator phone number programmed in (say because this is your home base and you regularly need them to discuss some aerial work with them in advance) it may well be the quickest and safest way to draw their attention to your situation.
But as with all things in an emergency scenario, especially in a far-fetched one like this, you've got to weigh your actions against the time they take, the distraction the cause and the effect they may have.