Over the sea, new PPL
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Over the sea, new PPL
Hi everyone, I'm after a little advice.
If the weather is looking nice in a few weekends time I'm planning a flight Manchester Barton - Lundy Island leaving the coast overhead Swansea. Having never flown over the sea any real distance before I thought it would be a good idea to gain a little advice from the knowledgeable folks of PPrune.
Cheers Tom
If the weather is looking nice in a few weekends time I'm planning a flight Manchester Barton - Lundy Island leaving the coast overhead Swansea. Having never flown over the sea any real distance before I thought it would be a good idea to gain a little advice from the knowledgeable folks of PPrune.
Cheers Tom
(1) Use navaids - plural"
(2) Monitor the AI and altimeter, because you'll find that you lose visual references very quickly
(3) Keep talking to somebody on RT
(4) Unless you are in a seriously STOL aeroplane, and are a very experienced strip pilot, do not contemplate trying to land on Lundy.
G
(2) Monitor the AI and altimeter, because you'll find that you lose visual references very quickly
(3) Keep talking to somebody on RT
(4) Unless you are in a seriously STOL aeroplane, and are a very experienced strip pilot, do not contemplate trying to land on Lundy.
G
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Never been to Lundy but from what I hear, Genghis has a point.
Do you have an NPPL or a PPL? Have you done the basic (1hr? 2hr? 3hr? can't remember) instrument flying lessons which are in the JAR PPL? You should have done level turns on instruments, and the basic use of the AI (artificial horizon) and turn coordinator.
The reason for this being that as stated above, you will lose the horizon easily over the sea, and may need to use the AI instead. Without at least a little training this is not easy to do, or to persuade yourself (psychologically) to do.
FWIW I did my first channel crossing only after doing an IMCR so I simply flew the thing on instruments.
Tim
Do you have an NPPL or a PPL? Have you done the basic (1hr? 2hr? 3hr? can't remember) instrument flying lessons which are in the JAR PPL? You should have done level turns on instruments, and the basic use of the AI (artificial horizon) and turn coordinator.
The reason for this being that as stated above, you will lose the horizon easily over the sea, and may need to use the AI instead. Without at least a little training this is not easy to do, or to persuade yourself (psychologically) to do.
FWIW I did my first channel crossing only after doing an IMCR so I simply flew the thing on instruments.
Tim
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Cheers for the replies,
IO540 I like your thinking, have a Garmin 430. It's a PA-28 and working out the landing distances it's well within Lundy's 400m. Plus flying out of Barton almost every landing I have done requires the short field technique.
Any recommendations on the best altitude to transit at and who is best to talk to?
Tom
IO540 I like your thinking, have a Garmin 430. It's a PA-28 and working out the landing distances it's well within Lundy's 400m. Plus flying out of Barton almost every landing I have done requires the short field technique.
Any recommendations on the best altitude to transit at and who is best to talk to?
Tom
Tom, how current are you on instruments?
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Check google earth and make sure you can properly identify the landing field.
A better choice for a first visit there is to go when the Devon strut are having one of their fly-outs there. They will have someone ahead adding a few extra threshold markers etc and parked in the field.
At least have a read of Welcome - Devon Strut and click on the Lundy Island link.
A better choice for a first visit there is to go when the Devon strut are having one of their fly-outs there. They will have someone ahead adding a few extra threshold markers etc and parked in the field.
At least have a read of Welcome - Devon Strut and click on the Lundy Island link.
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Landed on Lundy, short and bumpy but otherwise OK. You need short field experience and the right aircraft.
We have debated sea crossings many times; there are always differing views. If the worst happens lifejackets, even in the summer, will keep you afloat, but not alive for long. A liferaft or dry suite is the only guarantee of survival time in the water. Yes, I know it might never happen.
Subject to your instrument experience flying over the sea can be amazingly disorientating and even for instrument pilots it is not unheard to encounter a bad dose of the leans.
Of course check the NOTAMS - that route contains areas used by the forces and regular NOTAM activity.
Enjoy.
We have debated sea crossings many times; there are always differing views. If the worst happens lifejackets, even in the summer, will keep you afloat, but not alive for long. A liferaft or dry suite is the only guarantee of survival time in the water. Yes, I know it might never happen.
Subject to your instrument experience flying over the sea can be amazingly disorientating and even for instrument pilots it is not unheard to encounter a bad dose of the leans.
Of course check the NOTAMS - that route contains areas used by the forces and regular NOTAM activity.
Enjoy.
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IO540 I like your thinking, have a Garmin 430. It's a PA-28 and working out the landing distances it's well within Lundy's 400m. Plus flying out of Barton almost every landing I have done requires the short field technique.
Obviously I don't know your level of experience or skill, but your remark would seem to indicate a level of over-confidence. I've done Lundy myself and believe me, you need to work up to it and have a suitable aircraft.
Lundy may be 400m long but it is quite hump-backed and rough grass, so do the calcs using the appropriate factors and see what margins you have.
It is also very expensive to get the wreck off the island......
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Rough and Grass is bad news.
For a start, the runway performance figures will be worse than you expected
Could be a lot worse. My TB20 will rotate in 300-350m off tarmac but once I went to 1200m grass, surface turned out to be rough as hell, and the grass was tall enough to reach the prop arc. I rotated after about a 800-1000m ground run, after which I needed new teeth. Then I had to pay somebody £200 to clean all the well stuck green ***t off the whole plane.
For a start, the runway performance figures will be worse than you expected
Could be a lot worse. My TB20 will rotate in 300-350m off tarmac but once I went to 1200m grass, surface turned out to be rough as hell, and the grass was tall enough to reach the prop arc. I rotated after about a 800-1000m ground run, after which I needed new teeth. Then I had to pay somebody £200 to clean all the well stuck green ***t off the whole plane.
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Well you guys are certainly setting off the alarm bells, I think I may need to do a bit more research before setting off. Peter272 it certainly would be expensive to get a mashed plane scooped up.
Cheers a now rather nervous Tom
Cheers a now rather nervous Tom
Cheers for the replies,
IO540 I like your thinking, have a Garmin 430. It's a PA-28 and working out the landing distances it's well within Lundy's 400m. Plus flying out of Barton almost every landing I have done requires the short field technique.
Any recommendations on the best altitude to transit at and who is best to talk to?
Tom
IO540 I like your thinking, have a Garmin 430. It's a PA-28 and working out the landing distances it's well within Lundy's 400m. Plus flying out of Barton almost every landing I have done requires the short field technique.
Any recommendations on the best altitude to transit at and who is best to talk to?
Tom
You may well have a lot more experience than me Tom; I've only got about 140hrs, covering maybe 100 grass strip landings in PA28s, albeit within about 10 times that total hours and a CPL.
But certainly at my experience level, I'd certainly not contemplate flying any PA28 variant onto a 400m short rough grass strip on an island unless the best alternative was ditching. The odds of coming back by boat, or not at-all, are way to high for my taste.
Maybe I am over cautious, certainly influenced by wrecking a PA28 on a short grass field when I only had about 300 hours and an excessive degree of confidence in my own abilities. But I really wouldn't contemplate what you're considering - the trip is fine with suitable preparation, but not the landing on Lundy.
G
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It's not the landing that's the problem. Set yourself up for a good approach and drop it on as short as is safe - don't land too far into the strip. Use the slope to slow you down, but if the approach looks wrong, go around early.
The real problem is the take-off as you can't see the whole runway from the start point. When you go over the crest the far wall looks a lot closer than you think.
By the way, what engine does your PA28 have?
The real problem is the take-off as you can't see the whole runway from the start point. When you go over the crest the far wall looks a lot closer than you think.
By the way, what engine does your PA28 have?
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Hey Tom,
I am not familiar with your planned destination at all or with how experienced you are, but i will say that when I made my first cross channel trip, a few weeks after gaining my ppl, my flying club, white Waltham, had a policy where all recent ppl's wishing to fly on such trips using club rented planes had to have a check out ride with an instructor on such a crossing once before being able to go on their own
Personally, I found this whole exercise provided me with invaluable experience
Good luck
Nick
I am not familiar with your planned destination at all or with how experienced you are, but i will say that when I made my first cross channel trip, a few weeks after gaining my ppl, my flying club, white Waltham, had a policy where all recent ppl's wishing to fly on such trips using club rented planes had to have a check out ride with an instructor on such a crossing once before being able to go on their own
Personally, I found this whole exercise provided me with invaluable experience
Good luck
Nick
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I used to take a PA28-161 into a Billiard smooth, 540m grass strip for maintenance. The landing was fine, the departure was always something you had to think about.
Lundy is neither of the above. As Peter has said above, you'll have no problem getting in. The chances are however you'll end up leaving either by boat or Air Ambulance. I've taken a light single across the North Atlantic and back - in my opinion that was less risky than taking a PA28 into Lundy. I wouldn't do it (1200 hours, approx 300 on various 28's).
Lundy is neither of the above. As Peter has said above, you'll have no problem getting in. The chances are however you'll end up leaving either by boat or Air Ambulance. I've taken a light single across the North Atlantic and back - in my opinion that was less risky than taking a PA28 into Lundy. I wouldn't do it (1200 hours, approx 300 on various 28's).
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Remember too over water is spooky! How many pilots complain of rough sounding engines , fuel starvation splutters, mysterious back fires?
Funny smells ???
If you really must Land at Lundy why not a touch and go? One touch,back on the power and go. At least you can say you landed there
albeit briefly
OK you wont get the sandwich and coffee but hey ho..
Other than that pick a windy day! 50 kts on the nose should see you stopped in no time. Takeoff too should be a doddle especially mid winter
Must try it in the Citation some time
Pace
Funny smells ???
If you really must Land at Lundy why not a touch and go? One touch,back on the power and go. At least you can say you landed there
albeit brieflyOK you wont get the sandwich and coffee but hey ho..
Other than that pick a windy day! 50 kts on the nose should see you stopped in no time. Takeoff too should be a doddle especially mid winter
Must try it in the Citation some time
Pace
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Well you guys are certainly setting off the alarm bells
Must try it in the Citation some time
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Hi Tom,
As Ghengis and Chilli say, 400m in a PA-28 is a no-go, you really need a STOL aircraft to do it safely.
Please bear in mind that performance charts relate to a brand new aircraft with an engine in perfect condition and flown by a highly experienced test pilot in ideal conditions. Just like car performance claims they can be, shall we say, a little imaginative?
I originally trained on (and still fly) a PA28-161 and personally I wouldn't accept anything less than 600m - after all there's no point in landing on something which you can't take off from!
I think you can see where the advice on this thread is pointing
As Ghengis and Chilli say, 400m in a PA-28 is a no-go, you really need a STOL aircraft to do it safely.
Please bear in mind that performance charts relate to a brand new aircraft with an engine in perfect condition and flown by a highly experienced test pilot in ideal conditions. Just like car performance claims they can be, shall we say, a little imaginative?
I originally trained on (and still fly) a PA28-161 and personally I wouldn't accept anything less than 600m - after all there's no point in landing on something which you can't take off from!
I think you can see where the advice on this thread is pointing