Getting an instrument rating: Australia vs. USA
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Australia vs. USA: getting an instrument rating (SECIR/IFR)
If you earn your money in €uro, both the USA and Australia look attractive for doing some private flying. As a basic VFR-only Cessna slob, I'd like to get an instrument rating, upgrade my Austrian VFR-PPL (JAR-SEPL).
I'd just do it for proficiency and fun and am mostly concerned with transferability which, I know, is always a (terribly bureaucratic, unreasonable, costly) issue.
CASA ratings seem to be more easily accepted by JAA member countries, to be converted to JAR than FAA addon ratings. But maybe that's just relative. I'll be traveling USA and Australia for extended periods soon and will research offers there more closely.
-----------------
Addendum: UK regulations are not the topic here.
For example, the nice but unique UK IMC option is of little relevance to anyone flying anything anywhere else.
I'd just do it for proficiency and fun and am mostly concerned with transferability which, I know, is always a (terribly bureaucratic, unreasonable, costly) issue.
CASA ratings seem to be more easily accepted by JAA member countries, to be converted to JAR than FAA addon ratings. But maybe that's just relative. I'll be traveling USA and Australia for extended periods soon and will research offers there more closely.
Does anyone have first-hand experience with both already?
Can you generally recommend one country over the other?
Do you know of knowledgable/supportive flight training organisations?
All things being equal, where do you think, there's more bang for the Buck?
Thanks for any relevant advice you may have!-----------------
Addendum: UK regulations are not the topic here.
For example, the nice but unique UK IMC option is of little relevance to anyone flying anything anywhere else.
Last edited by Saab Dastard; 12th Feb 2011 at 21:23.
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Are you after an IMC rating or an Instrument rating ? untill we know what you want how can we help?
The FAA/IR cant (with ease) be converted into an EASA IR and with the attitude of EASA I doubt if an Australian IR is any different.
Having flown in both Australia & the USA I would say you have much better chance of high quality training in Australia.
The FAA/IR cant (with ease) be converted into an EASA IR and with the attitude of EASA I doubt if an Australian IR is any different.
Having flown in both Australia & the USA I would say you have much better chance of high quality training in Australia.
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Convertion to EASA IR is the same whether FAA or Australia. 15 hrs essentially.
The USA is more convienient, flights are cheaper, they will issue a FAA certificate on the back of a Euro certificate easily and you can add the IR to that. So unless you are planning to be in Australia for some time, I'd go to the USA.
Whichever way you go, if you are talking about a UK ONLY IMC rating then either IR will give you one of those on your UK licence for a fee but you don't have to do any flying or exams.
The USA is more convienient, flights are cheaper, they will issue a FAA certificate on the back of a Euro certificate easily and you can add the IR to that. So unless you are planning to be in Australia for some time, I'd go to the USA.
Whichever way you go, if you are talking about a UK ONLY IMC rating then either IR will give you one of those on your UK licence for a fee but you don't have to do any flying or exams.
Convertion to EASA IR is the same whether FAA or Australia. 15 hrs essentially.
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Chaps,
Despite a grasp of the English language that might assume the poster to be British, I believe he is based in Vienna. As such he probably also have an Austrian issued license and may never have heard of an IMC rating
but I have nothing to add on the question asked.....
Despite a grasp of the English language that might assume the poster to be British, I believe he is based in Vienna. As such he probably also have an Austrian issued license and may never have heard of an IMC rating
but I have nothing to add on the question asked.....
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In fact he states quite clearly in his posting that he wishes to add an IR to his AUSTRIAN (not to be confused with Australian...no Kangaroos in Austria) PPL.
An IMCR would seem to be a red herring here.
I'd like to get an instrument rating in the near future, upgrade my Austrian VFR-PPL (JAR-SEPL).
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Dublinpilot
I think you need to take another look at the first post, the guy is trying to find out about training on the USA or Australia, the aim being to get the IR transfered to his Austrian PPL.
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As for Australia depends where you are. Same in US. Some place will have great weather all year round, others you will be battling.
In oz I believe there are places that will give you a EU licence so should be able to give an EU MECIR. Maybe.....
In oz I believe there are places that will give you a EU licence so should be able to give an EU MECIR. Maybe.....
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A&C
I'm well aware of what he said in his first post. That is why I said that an IMC is a red herring here, because he can't add that to an Austrian PPL.
With all due respect it's you that needs to read the first post again, because you immediately asked
Clearly he can't add an IMC to an Austrian PPL.
I'm well aware of what he said in his first post. That is why I said that an IMC is a red herring here, because he can't add that to an Austrian PPL.
With all due respect it's you that needs to read the first post again, because you immediately asked
Are you after an IMC rating or an Instrument rating ?
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That's right.
Australia offers an "IMC Rating". With the UK, those are the only two countries in the world I know of which do a sub-ICAO IR.
The Australian IMCR could, like the UK IMCR, be used towards an FAA IR. In practice this rarely happens because the FAA IR dual training requirement is just 15hrs and practically nobody manages to do it in 15hrs, so just about everybody going out to the USA to do the IR, with some IMCR dual hours in their logbook, doesn't make any use (in logbook terms) of the earlier training.
Australia offers an "IMC Rating". With the UK, those are the only two countries in the world I know of which do a sub-ICAO IR.
The Australian IMCR could, like the UK IMCR, be used towards an FAA IR. In practice this rarely happens because the FAA IR dual training requirement is just 15hrs and practically nobody manages to do it in 15hrs, so just about everybody going out to the USA to do the IR, with some IMCR dual hours in their logbook, doesn't make any use (in logbook terms) of the earlier training.
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Hi A & C,
I don't want to fall out with you over this, so was going to send a nice police PM but you have that turned off, along with email!
Suffice to say that my quote in post number 9, came from the original pre-edited first posting
And for the sake of not falling out over something far too small to justify such a thing, I'll leave it at that
dp
I don't want to fall out with you over this, so was going to send a nice police PM but you have that turned off, along with email!
Suffice to say that my quote in post number 9, came from the original pre-edited first posting
And for the sake of not falling out over something far too small to justify such a thing, I'll leave it at that
dp
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dublinpilot
The pprune management don't like me very much and turned the PM & email off a year or so back so all I have to say is on open forums so that they can keep an eye on it.
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There is a recent comment on this subject in the professional training forum. It might be of interest to you if you are looking at the overseas options from a cost point of view.
Conversion to JAA of any ICAO IR follows the same process, regardless of the issuing agency, so FAA / CASA --> no difference.
Conversion to JAA of any ICAO IR follows the same process, regardless of the issuing agency, so FAA / CASA --> no difference.
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To answer the original poster...
Both the FAA and CASA IR's (and indeed all ICAO IRs) need to be converted in exactly the same way. This conversion consists of:
The problem with the above route is that part 1) can take at least 6 months and unless you have bags of time, easily 1 year and cost upwards of 1000 Euro.
In the UK we were relatively lucky that the UK CAA would give you an IMC rating based upon the foreign IR without having to do anything other than pay a fee. This "Cut down" IR allowed a lot of freedom but wasn't allowed to be used in Class A/B/C airspace, in other words Airways. It was also only valid in UK airspace.
Actually part 1) put me off so much, I decided to put my aeroplane on the N reg so I can use my FAA IR. Because 2 of us own the aeroplane, it would have cost us 25,000 Euro for me to convert my IR, and him to do his IR from scratch. To go to the N reg was about a 5th of that.
Both the FAA and CASA IR's (and indeed all ICAO IRs) need to be converted in exactly the same way. This conversion consists of:
- All the JAA IR exams, including any mandatory ground school residential elements required, then
- A minimum of 15 hours flight training by an approved FTO
- Pass a flight test
The problem with the above route is that part 1) can take at least 6 months and unless you have bags of time, easily 1 year and cost upwards of 1000 Euro.
In the UK we were relatively lucky that the UK CAA would give you an IMC rating based upon the foreign IR without having to do anything other than pay a fee. This "Cut down" IR allowed a lot of freedom but wasn't allowed to be used in Class A/B/C airspace, in other words Airways. It was also only valid in UK airspace.
Actually part 1) put me off so much, I decided to put my aeroplane on the N reg so I can use my FAA IR. Because 2 of us own the aeroplane, it would have cost us 25,000 Euro for me to convert my IR, and him to do his IR from scratch. To go to the N reg was about a 5th of that.
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There is no Australian IMC Rating
It's probably a little late to add this post but for anybody else looking to conduct training for an Instrument Rating in Australia, please note that there is no such thing as an IMC Rating in Australia like in the UK..never has been. What they do have is a Private Instrument Rating which is useless anywhere else in the world. The syllabus , training and testing is identical to the Command Instrument Rating..only the need for constant reviews etc are different.
There are more FAA instrument rating holders than any other jurisdiction by a wide margin. You will have a much wider choice of schools in the USA and personally, I think the FAA approach which emphasizes practical skills over the useless theoretical trivia so beloved by most other regulators makes the FAA rating a better one to hold.
I would also consider a Canadian IFR rating. It is very similar to the FAA rating and Canada does not require any of the security crap that both the US and Australia will require before you can start flying.
I would also consider a Canadian IFR rating. It is very similar to the FAA rating and Canada does not require any of the security crap that both the US and Australia will require before you can start flying.
