Pre Flight test leading to Disaster
"Professionalism" in the truest sense of the word IMO ultimately has nothing to do with the license held or even the total number of flying hours. I think it is largely defined by the attitude of the pilot. I know many PPL's I consider extremely professional because they have a clear understanding of the capabilities and limitations of their training and license and plan flights that are within their abilities. They also understand that learning doesn't stop when the PPL shows up in the mail and understand the personal responsibility to maintain their skills that is implicit in exercising the privileges of a pilots license. I also know a discouragingly large number of pilots who hold CPL's and even ATPL's who IMO are wholly unprofessional in the manner they fly, because of the poor and often dangerous attitude they display.
But not being able to successfully land an aircraft after a trivial malfunction like an open oil access door to me speaks of a profound failure to maintain basic flying skills. I think that this one area where too many PPL's are failing, especially those PPL's that own their own airplanes and thus do not have at least the minimal skills maintainance check requirements that renter pilots get. I realize these are harsh words but I think it is past time the GA community stops making excuses for pilots who are unwilling to maintain adequate skills by means of regular recurrent training, attending safety seminars, keeping up with regulatory and airspace changes, adequately plan x country flights etc etc.
But not being able to successfully land an aircraft after a trivial malfunction like an open oil access door to me speaks of a profound failure to maintain basic flying skills. I think that this one area where too many PPL's are failing, especially those PPL's that own their own airplanes and thus do not have at least the minimal skills maintainance check requirements that renter pilots get. I realize these are harsh words but I think it is past time the GA community stops making excuses for pilots who are unwilling to maintain adequate skills by means of regular recurrent training, attending safety seminars, keeping up with regulatory and airspace changes, adequately plan x country flights etc etc.
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A student could go direct to a flight school study 14 ATP exams full time. He could run through a PPlL Then the Multi and IR do all the other bits which train him to work in a professional environment and come out with a frozen ATP.
He may have gone through various aptitude tests to see if he had the right attributes for being a pilot.
He has to be better trained and to higher standards than a basic PPL?
The PPL is a different animal who take up flying for different reasons, some not the right reasons ?
They will come from all walks of life and all age groups as well as all income levels but they are leisure pilots. Some will have the right aptitude some won't.they are trained to a minimum standard to fly in good weather and in simple aircraft.
Next we have experience? The PPL may limit his experience to flying within his licence limitations or may add an IMCR or even an IR and a multi engine. He may be wealthy enough to fly 100 hrs per year plus but probably 20 to 30 hrs per year.
The guy with the frozen ATP may have gone for a type rating and be flying up to 900 hrs per year.
While the Experienced PPL with the right aptitude may be an excellent pilot we are such a broad church that does not hold true for all.the PPL may turn into a better pilot in what he does they are as different as chalk and cheese.Different doesn't always mean better.
Pace
A student could go direct to a flight school study 14 ATP exams full time. He could run through a PPlL Then the Multi and IR do all the other bits which train him to work in a professional environment and come out with a frozen ATP.
He may have gone through various aptitude tests to see if he had the right attributes for being a pilot.
He has to be better trained and to higher standards than a basic PPL?
The PPL is a different animal who take up flying for different reasons, some not the right reasons ?
They will come from all walks of life and all age groups as well as all income levels but they are leisure pilots. Some will have the right aptitude some won't.they are trained to a minimum standard to fly in good weather and in simple aircraft.
Next we have experience? The PPL may limit his experience to flying within his licence limitations or may add an IMCR or even an IR and a multi engine. He may be wealthy enough to fly 100 hrs per year plus but probably 20 to 30 hrs per year.
The guy with the frozen ATP may have gone for a type rating and be flying up to 900 hrs per year.
While the Experienced PPL with the right aptitude may be an excellent pilot we are such a broad church that does not hold true for all.the PPL may turn into a better pilot in what he does they are as different as chalk and cheese.Different doesn't always mean better.
Pace
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Commercial (jet) ops are much safer for a number of reasons which barely relate to the training originally received:
- 2 pilots
- operational support from base
- strict guidelines for go/no-go decisionmaking (and the other pilot is supposed to spill the beans on you if you bend the rules)
- lots of currency
- recurrent training
- GPWS
- non-varying routes
- very mission-capable hardware (de-iced, cat3c, wx radar, 35k+ op ceiling, etc)
- pilot recruitment concentrating on an "accountant" character profile
- GPWS
- GPWS
Start removing too many of the above and all these wonderful 14-exam CPLs and ATPs start crashing pretty quickly, just like the rest of "us".
- 2 pilots
- operational support from base
- strict guidelines for go/no-go decisionmaking (and the other pilot is supposed to spill the beans on you if you bend the rules)
- lots of currency
- recurrent training
- GPWS
- non-varying routes
- very mission-capable hardware (de-iced, cat3c, wx radar, 35k+ op ceiling, etc)
- pilot recruitment concentrating on an "accountant" character profile
- GPWS
- GPWS
Start removing too many of the above and all these wonderful 14-exam CPLs and ATPs start crashing pretty quickly, just like the rest of "us".
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We were not discussing whether commercial ops are safer than light GA aircraft.
Obviously they are far far safer.
What Does better mean? Better at flying a PA28? OCAS in IMC ?
Well if he has an IR prob Yes over the IMCR but prob not over the PPL IR
As a group rather than individuals yes they would be better because of their higher training levels but mostly because the majority willl have had aptitude screening and will be more of a uniform standard than the PPL as a group.
The pilot who makes a good Ferry pilot is different to the pilot who makes a good airline pilot who is different to the pilot who makes good Red Bull racer etc.
There is training and experience. Experience prob counts for more whatever flying you do and of course aptitude which is the ingredient which is not uniform in the PPL group and I refer you to the accident that started this conversation.
Pace
We were not discussing whether commercial ops are safer than light GA aircraft.
Obviously they are far far safer.
What Does better mean? Better at flying a PA28? OCAS in IMC ?
Well if he has an IR prob Yes over the IMCR but prob not over the PPL IR
As a group rather than individuals yes they would be better because of their higher training levels but mostly because the majority willl have had aptitude screening and will be more of a uniform standard than the PPL as a group.
The pilot who makes a good Ferry pilot is different to the pilot who makes a good airline pilot who is different to the pilot who makes good Red Bull racer etc.
There is training and experience. Experience prob counts for more whatever flying you do and of course aptitude which is the ingredient which is not uniform in the PPL group and I refer you to the accident that started this conversation.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 5th Feb 2011 at 07:53.
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When we test for a class or type rating we test at exactly the same standard. Take a look at the SRG1157 form and see of you can see any allowances for PPL holders. When we perform a test we don't test 'harder' for someone who is taking paying passengers over non paying. We test to ensure that everyone meets the same standard regardless.
Where the real difference lies is in that a working CPL will generally be more current due to the volume of hours flown and the constant checking within company SOP's whereas it is easier for a PPL to become rusty due to lack of currency.
The discussion should be around currency and professionalism rather than the differences between a CPL and a PPL. Every pilot should fly like a professional. To suggest that a private pilot is participating in a dangerous sport is just ludicrous.
Where the real difference lies is in that a working CPL will generally be more current due to the volume of hours flown and the constant checking within company SOP's whereas it is easier for a PPL to become rusty due to lack of currency.
The discussion should be around currency and professionalism rather than the differences between a CPL and a PPL. Every pilot should fly like a professional. To suggest that a private pilot is participating in a dangerous sport is just ludicrous.
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Are commercial pilots likely to do a better job than a PPL - yes, undoubtedly, they are more current and their training more focused.
....Is a statement which is extremely arguable, and probably has little basis in fact. The "better job" will be done by the person who has the better attitude overall. The letters printed on their license will have, at most, a passing relationship to this.
....Is a statement which is extremely arguable, and probably has little basis in fact. The "better job" will be done by the person who has the better attitude overall. The letters printed on their license will have, at most, a passing relationship to this.
I am not referring to individuals but to the population as a whole. Of course some PPLs will be "better" and of course the skill set of a PPL in some aspects is different than a ATPL.
However, an ATPL on average will be significantly more current than a PPL, significantly more comfortable in the flying enviroment, and likely to be more methodical when it comes to resolving a "situation".
The stick and rudder skills required to fly a SEP are in some aspects different and there are some aspects of flying a SEP at which the typical ATPL will perform no better or even worse than a current PPL flying SEPs.
I speak from experience. I have flown with quite a few current ATPLs who have either been out of light aircraft for a while or fly them regularly. In my exeprience they are as a group, focused, skilled and not surprisingly very comfortable in the cockpit enviroment. On average they are signficanty better than the average PPL flying maybe 30 or 40 hours a year.
For me no surprises there.
and so to the original post. I cant imagine many ATPLs being phased by the incident mentioned, whereas clearly this PPL was. I can imagine many other incidents which might phase the average PPL and probably wouldnt phase the average ATPL.
So yes of course there are skills unique to each discipline of flying. I wouldnt want to guarantee how well a typical ATPL would cope with an induced spin compared with a typical PPL in current aerobatic discipline but I bet on average a typical SEP current ATPL will outperform a typical current PPL in a range of aspects of flying a SEP.
As I said before a PPL has met the regulatory standard. At that time at least he was considered good enough to receive a license and that is good enough for me. However skills degrade or improve with use. An ATPL is unlikely to be allowed to let his skills degrade below a minimium, whereas a PPL must accept greater responsibility for self regulation whilst realising that if he allows his currency to fall to around the minimium regulatory level his skills may well have degraded to a level which is lower than when he was considered good enough to be licensed.
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I realise we have entered somewhat of cul-de sac re private v commercial. The above replies echo my own thoughts and the general consensis seems to be both are trained to suit different mission profiles - therefore 'skills' will vary accordinly. Currency is obviously a key issue; not just on how many hours one may log p/a but in terms of the flying they are doing.
I have heard horror stories of some guys who come to the club and firstly are surpirsed, even shocked, to learn they need to be checked out before hiring aircraft because they have 150hrs and a blue book. The standard of the flying reported is a real eye opener; in one case a pilot who estimated his position 35nm north from where he actually was - if he continued on track he would have entered CAS. Another were the instructor had to take avoiding action to prevent CFIT. Both pilots would have recieved more training than a PPL holder but neither flew to standards which would be satisfy a PPL/SEP examiner not because they are poor pilot's but because they are not current on SEP operations and the principles which apply; basically your on your own don't f*** it up!
I would expect a PPL/IMC holder to fly down an ILS to the same standard as CPL/IR holder nor I would I expect him to be efficent in a MCC enviroment in IMC.
We each have different skills to enable us to accomplish the type of flying we do. It is critical that we all identify these skills and know their limits. It is equally critical that one is confident and recognises his/her ability so should it all hit the fan one at least the sense of mind to do something about it.
This topic started from the poor guy who downed his plane after the oil inspection cover popped open in flight. Unfortunately the pilot allowed the aircraft to escape him with tragic consequences. However, lets also the consider the topic where the aircraft 'Crashed' at Headcorn after the bloddy donk fell off!!! The pilot seemed to have executed a text book forced landing!
I have heard horror stories of some guys who come to the club and firstly are surpirsed, even shocked, to learn they need to be checked out before hiring aircraft because they have 150hrs and a blue book. The standard of the flying reported is a real eye opener; in one case a pilot who estimated his position 35nm north from where he actually was - if he continued on track he would have entered CAS. Another were the instructor had to take avoiding action to prevent CFIT. Both pilots would have recieved more training than a PPL holder but neither flew to standards which would be satisfy a PPL/SEP examiner not because they are poor pilot's but because they are not current on SEP operations and the principles which apply; basically your on your own don't f*** it up!
I would expect a PPL/IMC holder to fly down an ILS to the same standard as CPL/IR holder nor I would I expect him to be efficent in a MCC enviroment in IMC.
We each have different skills to enable us to accomplish the type of flying we do. It is critical that we all identify these skills and know their limits. It is equally critical that one is confident and recognises his/her ability so should it all hit the fan one at least the sense of mind to do something about it.
This topic started from the poor guy who downed his plane after the oil inspection cover popped open in flight. Unfortunately the pilot allowed the aircraft to escape him with tragic consequences. However, lets also the consider the topic where the aircraft 'Crashed' at Headcorn after the bloddy donk fell off!!! The pilot seemed to have executed a text book forced landing!
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I would expect a PPL/IMC holder to fly down an ILS to the same standard as CPL/IR holder nor I would I expect him to be efficent in a MCC enviroment in IMC.
We each have different skills to enable us to accomplish the type of flying we do. It is critical that we all identify these skills and know their limits. It is equally critical that one is confident and recognises his/her ability so should it all hit the fan one at least the sense of mind to do something about it.
We each have different skills to enable us to accomplish the type of flying we do. It is critical that we all identify these skills and know their limits. It is equally critical that one is confident and recognises his/her ability so should it all hit the fan one at least the sense of mind to do something about it.
Single pilot IFR operations I would expect 2 candidates arriving for test PPL & CPL to perform to exactly the same standard or neither will pass. Tuck your ego back in your little blue/green book.
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With all due respect you are talking through you arse or your ego.
The wonders of the iPhone eh?!
Taking aside the IMC minima and sticking with an IR so we compare apples with apples I would expect a PPL/IR holder to be able to fly SPA down to the same standard as a CPL/IR holder.
As we're comparing apples with apples. I have seen quite a few CPL Pilots with a SEP rating who cannot display the nessecary SEP flying skills one would expect a PPL candidate to display on a skills test.
Last edited by Ryan5252; 5th Feb 2011 at 17:28.
