U.K. National (CAA) licence to EASA
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U.K. National (CAA) licence to EASA
Dear fellow PPL'ers
I recently contacted the CAA to enquire about the fee change from my U.K PPL (not JAR)National licence to EASA come the 'great'?? day in 2012.
They want to charge the princely sum of £176:00.
After I picked myself up off the floor I tried to reason why this is. I have written to the CAA asking them to explain this figure. I thought I'd paid for my licence back in 1986. I am (and those that have licences for life) are being asked again to pay for a licence with different wording on it
.
There are approximately 15000 U.K. CAA PPL holders in the U.K. If you do the sums that equates to an awful lot of money into the CAA coffers, and for what? Sorry guys and girls I find this insulting, flying is not cheap, it never has been but for those of us who love the freedom and the challenge ( I hold IMC, complex and Multi ratings) it is another kick in the teeth to those who try to be safe, competent and promote GA in this country.
Apologies for the rant but I was staggered by this imposition.
Any views gratefully accepted.
I recently contacted the CAA to enquire about the fee change from my U.K PPL (not JAR)National licence to EASA come the 'great'?? day in 2012.
They want to charge the princely sum of £176:00.
After I picked myself up off the floor I tried to reason why this is. I have written to the CAA asking them to explain this figure. I thought I'd paid for my licence back in 1986. I am (and those that have licences for life) are being asked again to pay for a licence with different wording on it.There are approximately 15000 U.K. CAA PPL holders in the U.K. If you do the sums that equates to an awful lot of money into the CAA coffers, and for what? Sorry guys and girls I find this insulting, flying is not cheap, it never has been but for those of us who love the freedom and the challenge ( I hold IMC, complex and Multi ratings) it is another kick in the teeth to those who try to be safe, competent and promote GA in this country.
Apologies for the rant but I was staggered by this imposition.
Any views gratefully accepted.
The (helpful) person said they had no information at all.
for the grant of a Professional Pilot's Licence, other than a Commercial Pilot's Licence (Balloons), a Commercial Pilot's Licence (Airships) or a Commercial Pilot's Licence (Gliders), valid for five years, including an initial type rating and instrument rating where these are included in the application, a charge of £231;
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Licensed to kill
Whopity makes an important and interesting point.
What the CAA is suggesting is that National PPLs are converted now at a cost of £176. The purpose is to avoid waiting times come April 2012 because they, the CAA, do not have the manpower to cope. The benificiary of all that is the CAA. Licence holders following the advice will be out of pocket.
The CAA are threatening everyone that an application for the EASA licence, left too late for their lack of staff - say March 2012, could take months to process and the pilot will therefore be grounded at the time of change.
The EASA rulemaking will not be through the EU Parliament until at the earliest this May. The CAA believe that JAR issued licences, come April 2012, will be automatically recognised. They dont know that for certain nor that the national licences will not be.
Even if everyone converted now to JAR licences it shouldn't be forgotten that they are only issued for 5 years and so later, after the change to EASA, will need renewing again. The current fee for that is £84 for a PPL, more for a professional licence.
So, the total cost could be £176 + £84 at current rates. More for a professional licence following the CAA advice.
EASA LICENCES ARE TO be ISSUED FOR LIFE.
My advice is to save the effort of following the CAA advice and contact your MP.
What the CAA is suggesting is that National PPLs are converted now at a cost of £176. The purpose is to avoid waiting times come April 2012 because they, the CAA, do not have the manpower to cope. The benificiary of all that is the CAA. Licence holders following the advice will be out of pocket.
The CAA are threatening everyone that an application for the EASA licence, left too late for their lack of staff - say March 2012, could take months to process and the pilot will therefore be grounded at the time of change.
The EASA rulemaking will not be through the EU Parliament until at the earliest this May. The CAA believe that JAR issued licences, come April 2012, will be automatically recognised. They dont know that for certain nor that the national licences will not be.
Even if everyone converted now to JAR licences it shouldn't be forgotten that they are only issued for 5 years and so later, after the change to EASA, will need renewing again. The current fee for that is £84 for a PPL, more for a professional licence.
So, the total cost could be £176 + £84 at current rates. More for a professional licence following the CAA advice.
EASA LICENCES ARE TO be ISSUED FOR LIFE.
My advice is to save the effort of following the CAA advice and contact your MP.
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Annex II Aircraft
Good point.
Your UK lifetime licence cannot be withdrawn. You can keep the EASA and national licence in parallel. Step out of your Annex II aircraft and put the national licence back in the bag. Climb into the otherwise indentical C of A aircraft and get out the EASA licence. Barmy!
Annex II aircraft will not be the the responsibility of EASA but that of national authorities, the CAA in our case. The pre JAR UK lifetime licence will remain valid to continue flying Annex II types, which includes most of the aircraft covered by the LAA, plus others.
Your UK lifetime licence cannot be withdrawn. You can keep the EASA and national licence in parallel. Step out of your Annex II aircraft and put the national licence back in the bag. Climb into the otherwise indentical C of A aircraft and get out the EASA licence. Barmy!
Annex II aircraft will not be the the responsibility of EASA but that of national authorities, the CAA in our case. The pre JAR UK lifetime licence will remain valid to continue flying Annex II types, which includes most of the aircraft covered by the LAA, plus others.
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Annex II aircraft will not be the the responsibility of EASA
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Nice to now they can't find their way around their own website! £231 according to the Scheme of Charges 3.1(b)
Whopity, surely the conversion path to EASA hasn't yet been agreed, so there's no reason to assume this will be the procedure and/or charge?
Whopity, surely the conversion path to EASA hasn't yet been agreed, so there's no reason to assume this will be the procedure and/or charge?
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Don't change. There is likely to be a 3-year transition post 2012.
If all of the 10000 UK pilots find their life-time licences are downgraded and associated ratings become void, then the DoT need to be fired up. And if we do need to be transferred then we need it done free of charge,
The CAA can determine the transitional arrangements and they are under the control of the Minister. So given enough pressure and threats of legal action we should get a straight grandfathering - like most other countries will be doing
If all of the 10000 UK pilots find their life-time licences are downgraded and associated ratings become void, then the DoT need to be fired up. And if we do need to be transferred then we need it done free of charge,
The CAA can determine the transitional arrangements and they are under the control of the Minister. So given enough pressure and threats of legal action we should get a straight grandfathering - like most other countries will be doing
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As Peter says above, for goodness sake dont let the b*ggers pick us off one by one. Leave it until the last possible moment. It will be the CAA's problem not ours. They will not ground 15000 ICAO licence holders overnight. Anyway, as has been remarked, at the moment, AIUI, there is no conversion process for CAA PPL direct to EASA PPL, and some say it would require additional training in radio nav if not already done.
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Of course, you could leave it to the last minute along with the 15,000 others that need converting. How much time do you think the CAA will allow you to fly on an expired licence for?
Your refusal to convert until the last minute and then being unable to fly due to administrative backlog won't cut with the CAA as being an emergency I suspect.
Your refusal to convert until the last minute and then being unable to fly due to administrative backlog won't cut with the CAA as being an emergency I suspect.
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Bose, as the expert, could you confirm;
Is there a two year transition? So no panic till 2014?
If you fly a non EASA aircraft you need to keep the old licence anyway?
After the date (2012 or 2014) you can carry on flying provided your c of e is current, so that could be another 2 years (2014 or 2016)?
I too am favouring leaving it at least for now, as the EASA licences are still in flux.
Rod1
Is there a two year transition? So no panic till 2014?
If you fly a non EASA aircraft you need to keep the old licence anyway?
After the date (2012 or 2014) you can carry on flying provided your c of e is current, so that could be another 2 years (2014 or 2016)?
I too am favouring leaving it at least for now, as the EASA licences are still in flux.
Rod1
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It is only valid when the ratings have been validated.
If, for example, the CAA make it impossible to revalidate by having no instructors able to undertake the biannual flight, or examiners the LST or sign the form, then you will be holding a lifetime piece of worthless paper.
If, for example, the CAA make it impossible to revalidate by having no instructors able to undertake the biannual flight, or examiners the LST or sign the form, then you will be holding a lifetime piece of worthless paper.
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Of course, you could leave it to the last minute along with the 15,000 others that need converting. How much time do you think the CAA will allow you to fly on an expired licence for?
When will instructors / examiners be told they can no longer renew the ratings?
If you have an IR that will give you a year, and if you have an IMCr and your usual every other year that will give you two years presumably?
Is two years long enough for the CAA to convert the licence?
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My understanding is that as long as the UK-PPL is valid at the point of transition then it remains valid until the expiry of the ratings.
The CAA have made it clear in their earlier letter that they are not resourced to handle the transfer of that many licences in the period 2011 - April 2012 and have raised this with the Dft and with EASA.
Again, I understand there is actually a 3 year transition planned so that would give us to April 2015, but that isn't set in stone. It hasn't been confirmed yet and it is up to the CAA to ask for it.
Remember that with Part M there was a 3 year transition but the CAA went balls out for a 4 month transition. Other countries took the full 3 years.
The letter that came out in Sept from the CAA almost begged us to transition early to the JAR licence (and pay the £180 upfront fee) so that there was no work involved in the transition to the EASA PPL.
If they really want us to do that they should waive the fee, but there are still issues about associated ratings valid on the UK-PPL but not on the JAR.
I'm still not sure how it has been permitted to make an ICAO-compliant licence invalid. If, as the French and AOPA seem to believe, that EASA has no right to take away existing privileges, then surely they cannot remove the validity of the UK-PPL that is ICAO compliant.
In my view we need to keep plugging away at our MPs to try to get them to recognise the cost and b*ggeration factors involved in the process.
We've lost the EASA FCL battle thanks to some sneaky enemy action, incompetent generals and sentries asleep at their posts. But it doesn't mean we can't ensure we don't lose the entire war.
The CAA have made it clear in their earlier letter that they are not resourced to handle the transfer of that many licences in the period 2011 - April 2012 and have raised this with the Dft and with EASA.
Again, I understand there is actually a 3 year transition planned so that would give us to April 2015, but that isn't set in stone. It hasn't been confirmed yet and it is up to the CAA to ask for it.
Remember that with Part M there was a 3 year transition but the CAA went balls out for a 4 month transition. Other countries took the full 3 years.
The letter that came out in Sept from the CAA almost begged us to transition early to the JAR licence (and pay the £180 upfront fee) so that there was no work involved in the transition to the EASA PPL.
If they really want us to do that they should waive the fee, but there are still issues about associated ratings valid on the UK-PPL but not on the JAR.
I'm still not sure how it has been permitted to make an ICAO-compliant licence invalid. If, as the French and AOPA seem to believe, that EASA has no right to take away existing privileges, then surely they cannot remove the validity of the UK-PPL that is ICAO compliant.
In my view we need to keep plugging away at our MPs to try to get them to recognise the cost and b*ggeration factors involved in the process.
We've lost the EASA FCL battle thanks to some sneaky enemy action, incompetent generals and sentries asleep at their posts. But it doesn't mean we can't ensure we don't lose the entire war.
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I'm more than happy to write to my MP or even bend his ear in person BUT I'm not sure that I have all the facts!
Does anyone have a decent letter that I can plagiarise?
I've a poo-brown UK PPL and a Permit a/c.
Stik
Does anyone have a decent letter that I can plagiarise?
I've a poo-brown UK PPL and a Permit a/c.
Stik
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I'm missing something. How can you change your licence from an NPPL to the new EASA licence when we don't yet know what the medical requirements are?
So, a 3 year transition period, call it 660 working days. 15,000 licenses means 23 licenses per day. So, the secretary needs to be able to print out a few sheets of paper, cut them badly, and stick them in a crapy wallet, once every 20 minutes.
Which moron at the CAA is claiming insufficient resources, again?
Which moron at the CAA is claiming insufficient resources, again?