Saying thank you?

[SNS3Guppy]

ICAO Doc 9432 (Manual of Radiotelephony) specifically states "The use of courtesies should be avoided"

Where in the document are we directed to avoid courtesy?

http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/Doc...ed.%202007.pdf

Page 3-1 of the Manual of Telephony states:

"The phraseologies contained in these documents are not intended to be exhaustive, and both documents refer in several instances, to the need for "additional phraseologies," or "appropriate subsidiary phraseologies," or "plain language."

Page 3-2 states:
"Phraseologies are applicable to most routine situations; however, they are not intended to cover every conceivable situation which may arise."

In other words, they're not hard and fast rules, but guidelines. Additional phraseology is not inappropriate.

[Morrisman1]

And if anybody thinks the pro's don't do this needs to do a bit of flying 'after hours'. Doing a bit of night flying i listened intently to a description of a 'fit' female contoller playing netball, and a light hearted slanging match between two rival domestic operators.. which was bloody hilarious.

This may have identified me... or my location.....

I dont think it's my home aerodrome, I cant imagine our female controller playing netball

[FlyingKiwi_73]

I dont think it's my home aerodrome, I cant imagine our female controller playing netball

Sadly she's moved on..... on a clear evening i rip my clothes off and howl in the direction of the tower....

Thats a joke... maybe. sorry to hijack the thread

[mary meagher]

Echo Romeo, leaving the frequency!

[peregrineh]

I think a simple 'thank you and good day' is not asking too much, especially if not too busy

[172_driver]

Where in the document are we directed to avoid courtesy?

http://dcaa.slv.dk000/icaodocs/Doc...ed.%202007.pdf

You were almost there, 3.1.4

Indeed just guidelines, but for good reasons.

I am not saying courtesies are inappropriate, just time and place for them has to be choosen. Where I fly the R/T load can sometimes be very high, most pilots are sensible and revert to standard R/T in these cases.

On another note if courtesies are overused, they loose its value. Like in any conversations. Therefore I see no purpose in making it habit to always say thank you. Just like the standard American jargon

[Fuji Abound]

N2345X- "Well, I hope to finish my PPL within the next month, then I begin my CPL and instructor´s course. When I have built up enough time, I will go for my IR then instruct for a year before returning to my own country and hopefully become a professional airline pilot."

Approach- "Turn RIGHT, take up heading 180, maintain 2500 feet ...

N2345X going around,

TOWER: What are your intentions? (please)

N2345X well I suppose I had better go around with the aircraft to. (thank you).

Hat, coat.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

I was crossing a control zone once and asked to be cleared direct to a VRP on the other side

Controller asked "and after XYZ what your intentions?"

I had to think for a bit as it wasn't the response i was prepared for ( i did know where i was going)

I said "Well i'd like to turn right and proceed ABC, if thats ok?"

WHY i added "if thats ok" i don't know, brain was stalled

Towers reponse "YHF Cleared ABC via XYZ 3500ft or below, and its just fine with me"

Love controllers quick brains.

[SNS3Guppy]

On another note if courtesies are overused, they loose its value. Like in any conversations. Therefore I see no purpose in making it habit to always say thank you. Just like the standard American jargon

"Standard American jargon? What is that supposed to mean?

Courtesy is always appropriate, and doesn't lose value, even when used with some frequency.

One may certainly omit pleasantries during times of high frequency congestion, but courtesy is always appreciated.

[malcolmf]

The use of courtesies should be avoided

Should, not must!
No problem on frequencies over Siberia, different with Heathrow Director. It's all about SA. Even JFK tower used to manage "nice night, great flight" for every departure (which does get a bit wearing for the 50th time)

[Pace]

A bit late on this thread! Firstly I do think that pilots like to customise and personalise their messages.I used to hate pilots adding 1013 or 2992 coming down (Yuck) Often pilots will add BYE as they depart a frequency.
Really pilots get bored and often play around with the RT messages.
Fly over London at a bad time and it can be almost impossible to get a call in never mind reading verses of Shakespeare to the controller.
A lonely night over no where with hardly a soul on frequency and having a controller there is quite comforting.
The frequency can be so quiete that I have even had controllers ask what I was doing over the weekend just to give them someone to talk to.
So Yes we do like to add our own small stamp on RT but how much of a stamp depends on the situation.
i can even remember hearing one pilot asking a sexy sounding female controller for a date

Pace

[SNS3Guppy]

No problem on frequencies over Siberia, different with Heathrow Director.

Actually, controllers in Siberia are courteous, too.

[BackPacker]

Courtesy is always appropriate, and doesn't lose value, even when used with some frequency.

What? "Hi there, how'ya doin'?" hasn't lost its value? Damn. You should've told me before I went to the US. I honestly didn't know that the waitress/cashier/taxi driver was actually really interested in my state of well-being. So you're saying that I should've said something other than "Fine, how about yourselves"?

Actually, controllers in Siberia are courteous, too.

But probably not quite as busy as Heathrow Director.

[SNS3Guppy]

What? "Hi there, how'ya doin'?" hasn't lost its value? Damn. You should've told me before I went to the US. I honestly didn't know that the waitress/cashier/taxi driver was actually really interested in my state of well-being. So you're saying that I should've said something other than "Fine, how about yourselves"?

I think you've answered your own question, but unless those waitresses, cashiers, and taxi-drivers were engaging in communications on an aircraft radio, then it's really quite irrelevant, isn't it?

When was the last time you heard "Hi there, how ya doin'?" on an aircraft radio? When was the last time you responded on the aircraft radio "Fine, how about yourselves?"

Thought so.

But probably not quite as busy as Heathrow Director.

I certainly hope not. Siberia would lose it's charm. The London controllers are always quite courteous, however. They may or may not have time for pleasantries, but seldom is a "g'day" or "thanks" intrusive on radio time, or inappropriate.

[Fuji Abound]

I think the point Backpacker is making is "have a good day" etc has little charm when it is said with zero sincerity. While I dont believe for a moment the thanks heard on the radio are anything other than sincere dont say it if you dont mean it.

That said, and while we are on topic, is there a place for sarcasm? You have been refused the clearance for the third time for no obvious reason - so do you accept the refusal with a shrug or flavour your RT with a modicum of 'I am not impressed'. Just an aside form the other angle.

[SNS3Guppy]

While I dont believe for a moment the thanks heard on the radio are anything other than sincere dont say it if you dont mean it.

You're kidding, right? You're concerned with sincerity, when hearing "g'day?"

"Eight Nine Victor, climb and maintain seven thousand, turn right heading two seven zero, report the heading to London on 127.3."

"Seven thousand for eight niner victor, report heading two seven zero to London, g'day."

"Eight Nine Victor, London, before you go, do you really mean that?"

"Eight Niner Victor, affirmative, I do mean I'll contact London on 127.3."

"Negative, Eight Nine Victor. That's not what I mean."

"London, Eight Niner Victor, understand you want us climbing seven thousand, heading two seven zero. Will report to London on 127.3"

"Afraid that's still not what I meant, Eight Nine Victor."

"Ah, say requst, London?"

"Eight Nine Victor, you advised 'g'day.' I should hate to think that you'd advise me to have a good day insincerely."

"London, Eight Niner Victor, understand your request is sincerity verification. Is this correct?"

"Affirmative, Eight Nine Victor, confirm sincere g'day, then contact London 127.3"

"Ah, London, Eight Niner Victor, unable sincerity at this time. Suggest accept implied passing interest, if able."

"Eight Nine Victor, we're unable to accept that at this time. Hold present position until we work this out."

"London, Eight Niner Victor, we're VFR and don't plan to hold. Level now seven thousand, heading two seven zero, switching now London on 127.3."

"Eight Nine Victor, remain this frequency, cleared direct Coventry where you may kiss my branded backside."

"Unable backside this time, London, happy trails, so long, and have a moderately pleasant day if able, Eight Niner Victor."

[Fuji Abound]

Nah, over here we would think you are from down under mate if you wished us a G'day. Yowl be wanting a cold one next. Anyway G'day is not thanks. We tend to say thanks over here either if we mean it or if we are being sarcastic (thanks for nothing). Then of course we Brits are more sincere than you Yanks which is why you must listen out for the Speedbird callsign to hear RT done proper like.

Over your way they still wish you a good day when they really want to give you a Glasgow kiss. x x.

[nick ritter]

Thank you all for your posts

[SNS3Guppy]

Nah, over here we would think you are from down under mate if you wished us a G'day.

I used to be, I guess. At least I once sounded like it.

Anyway G'day is not thanks.

Really? What earth shattering news is this? Remarkable. Truly remarkable.

Of course, G'day is "good day" in a truncated format, and thus none the less, a courtesy. Imagine that.

Then of course we Brits are more sincere than you Yanks which is why you must listen out for the Speedbird callsign to hear RT done proper like.

Ah, well: a stiff upper lip doth not sincerity make.

Still...

"Eight Nine Victor, climb and maintain seven thousand, turn right heading two seven zero, report the heading to London on 127.3."

"Seven thousand for eight niner victor, thanks, and report heading two seven zero to London, g'day."

"Eight Nine Victor, London, before you go, do you really mean that?"

"Eight Niner Victor, affirmative, I do mean I'll contact London on 127.3."

"Negative, Eight Nine Victor. That's not what I mean."

"London, Eight Niner Victor, understand you want us climbing seven thousand, heading two seven zero. Will report to London on 127.3"

"Afraid that's still not what I meant, Eight Nine Victor."

"Ah, say requst, London?"

"Eight Nine Victor, you advised 'thanks.' I should hate to think that you'd thank me insincerely."

"London, Eight Niner Victor ma'am, understand your request is gratitude verification. Is this correct?"

"Affirmative, Eight Nine Victor, confirm sincere thankfulness, then contact London 127.3"

"Ah, London, Eight Niner Victor, confirming our deepest indebtedness to you for the altitude change, and advising that we wish you the greatest of new years and an excellent day. Switching London, 127.3"

"Eight nine Victor, London, say degree of indebtedness, over."

"Ma'am, Eight Niner Victor advising that twere' it possible we should like nothing more than to spend our remaining fleeting moments basking in your opulent radiance, and request that you have our child. How copy?"

"Eight Nine Victor, copy your request to father my child, stand by, please."

"London, Eight Niner Victor standing by in the deepest of humble gratitude, advising gratitude until fuel reserves four five minutes."

"Eight Nine Victor, London copies four five minutes gratitude remaining, hold present position while verify able bear your children. Expect further clearance later this month, over."

"Understand later this month, and be aware, London, Eight Niner Victor unable diamond ring at this time, suggest Opal or cut glass."

"Eight Nine Victor, London Sweetie Twiddle Dee, copy and advise you had us at cut glass. Standby to copy phone number."

"That's a phone number for Eight Niner Victor, London, dearest? Say reason for number, and go ahead."

"Eight Nine Victor, Honey Bunches of Oats, London. Number for barrister for prenuptual agreement, advise when ready to copy."

"London, Eight Niner Victor confirms general sincerity, but updates remaining gratitude at five minutes, requesting immediate departure present position."

"Understand unable remain, Eight Nine Victor. Say intended direction of travel?"

"London, Eight Niner Victor, say your position relative to us?"

"Eight Nine Victor, London dearest here, we are due north of your current location, over."

"Copy that, London. Request departure south, as far as we can go. G'day."

[Fuji Abound]

Guppy - you been drinking on duty again and been taken in by all our lovely sounding London controllers - I can tell you they look as good as they sound! Seriously, only joking, please dont take me too seriously all the time.