Glider sites - Do you call them?
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From: upminster
Glider sites - Do you call them?
A week or so back I was on route to Woodbridge (disused), for a Navex and as I passed overhead Wormingford Glider site at 2,900ft I was told by instructor to keep a VERY GOOD lookout for gliders. A few seconds later out to our left were several gliders, one of which seemed to be comming closer to us each second. Instructor took control and put aircraft into climbing right turn until glider was well away from us.
I was just wondering how everybody else deals with glider sites, do you;
keep well away from them?
Give them a call?
Keep a listening watch?
or as we did just fly through BUT keep a good lookout?
On the ground before the flight I was aware that we would be flying through Wormingford and asked instructor if we should give them a call on 129.975, he said no, just lookout.
Thanks
I was just wondering how everybody else deals with glider sites, do you;
keep well away from them?
Give them a call?
Keep a listening watch?
or as we did just fly through BUT keep a good lookout?
On the ground before the flight I was aware that we would be flying through Wormingford and asked instructor if we should give them a call on 129.975, he said no, just lookout.
Thanks
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From: Amsterdam
In my (limited) experience I have found that glider sites operate essentially non-radio. They would be very surprised if every Dick, Tom and Harry who passed close by would be calling them up. And even a listening watch will not tell you a lot.
Glider sites are best avoided by, say, 5 nm and if you do fly overhead, make sure you are well above the height that's indicated on the chart. That height will be the maximum height that can be reached by the winch and for obvious reasons the circuit height will be below that.
Having said that, gliders can be anywhere and are definitely not limited to the 5 nm radius that I mentioned. But you will avoid virtually all the instructional/solo flights and circuit traffic that way.
Another tactic is to fly *above* the bases of the Cu clouds - in other words in between or above the Cu clouds, but not underneath. Gliders have no easy way of climbing above the base of Cu clouds unless they enter the clouds - which only very few will do.
Glider sites are best avoided by, say, 5 nm and if you do fly overhead, make sure you are well above the height that's indicated on the chart. That height will be the maximum height that can be reached by the winch and for obvious reasons the circuit height will be below that.
Having said that, gliders can be anywhere and are definitely not limited to the 5 nm radius that I mentioned. But you will avoid virtually all the instructional/solo flights and circuit traffic that way.
Another tactic is to fly *above* the bases of the Cu clouds - in other words in between or above the Cu clouds, but not underneath. Gliders have no easy way of climbing above the base of Cu clouds unless they enter the clouds - which only very few will do.
Avoid imitations
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Lookout should always be paramount.
I don't routinely call glider sites but instead keep well clear and avoid flying through the overhead. I also think about the prevailing conditions and where gliders might be operating around sites. According to my chart, Wormingford launches up to 3,300 ft so going over below that altitude is unwise.
I don't routinely call glider sites but instead keep well clear and avoid flying through the overhead. I also think about the prevailing conditions and where gliders might be operating around sites. According to my chart, Wormingford launches up to 3,300 ft so going over below that altitude is unwise.
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From: Sunny Sussex
Not forgetting hang & paragliders which are well capable of climbing to cloudbase & toddling off on long xc's.
Most air maps have them marked although there are notable exceptions, in fact I recall setting up for takeoff at Mount Caburn near Lewes a few years ago when a mill jet came screaming over the back of takeoff at about 50' ato, then did it again five minutes later - it was us who kept a good lookout that day.
One clue is the more unstable the day, the more likely you are to see gliders bobbing about the sky. It's all about the thermals innit.
Most air maps have them marked although there are notable exceptions, in fact I recall setting up for takeoff at Mount Caburn near Lewes a few years ago when a mill jet came screaming over the back of takeoff at about 50' ato, then did it again five minutes later - it was us who kept a good lookout that day.
One clue is the more unstable the day, the more likely you are to see gliders bobbing about the sky. It's all about the thermals innit.
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From: Direct REVTU
If I was going to remain obviously clear of the gliding site then there's not much point in calling. At 2500-3000ft you'll find gliders 10-15 miles from the field even when not flying cross country, so proximity to the site is not really an issue. A good visual lookout is always important.
However, if I was passing through the overhead or on any track that could be confused with a join then I'd give them a call. What you don't want to do is inadvertently interfere with the glider launching. For example, the duty pilot may have an early solo pilot ready to launch - and may be holding off doing so with unidentified inbound traffic. 1000ft height difference a few miles out isn't always obvious from the ground.
If you're going to be remaining in the vicinity of the gliding site for a while, then giving them a call would always be worthwhile.
However, if I was passing through the overhead or on any track that could be confused with a join then I'd give them a call. What you don't want to do is inadvertently interfere with the glider launching. For example, the duty pilot may have an early solo pilot ready to launch - and may be holding off doing so with unidentified inbound traffic. 1000ft height difference a few miles out isn't always obvious from the ground.
If you're going to be remaining in the vicinity of the gliding site for a while, then giving them a call would always be worthwhile.
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From: Suffolk
Calling a gliding site is probably not much use, because all they can tell you is if a launch is about to start. What the gliders already airborne might do is dictated by the conditions, training exercises (plenty of spinning) etc, and is unlikely to be known by those on the ground.
There are three types of traffic to consider:
1. Gliders and tugs on launch or in the circuit. Circuits will be very tight by power standards. Winch launches should be a major concern - for example, I've flown from Wormingford and they have a long run and a powerful winch. With 15kt SW winds it's quite possible that launches will reach 3,000ft agl, 3,300 msl. 2,900 overhead was not a good place to be!
2. Local soaring gliders will generally be concentrated in a cone on the upwind side of the airfield, because this makes getting back more likely if the pilot can't find more lift.
3. XC gliders could be anywhere at all - 500km flights have been flown from Wormingford. What to watch out for on the NOTAMS is competition grids, as these tend to fly around in gaggles or streams, all taking the same course. Unfortunately the task is set on the day, and sometimes changed as the weather conditions become clearer, so the NOTAMS won't tell you the route.
If you were flying near a gliding site with a NOTAMed competition it might well be worth making the call (129.975 or 130.1). If the grid is launching all the gliders will be dropped in roughly the same place, and it would be worth knowing about this. If gliders have started to return they may be final gliding at 100kt+, and it would be worth knowing the direction they will be coming from.
There are three types of traffic to consider:
1. Gliders and tugs on launch or in the circuit. Circuits will be very tight by power standards. Winch launches should be a major concern - for example, I've flown from Wormingford and they have a long run and a powerful winch. With 15kt SW winds it's quite possible that launches will reach 3,000ft agl, 3,300 msl. 2,900 overhead was not a good place to be!
2. Local soaring gliders will generally be concentrated in a cone on the upwind side of the airfield, because this makes getting back more likely if the pilot can't find more lift.
3. XC gliders could be anywhere at all - 500km flights have been flown from Wormingford. What to watch out for on the NOTAMS is competition grids, as these tend to fly around in gaggles or streams, all taking the same course. Unfortunately the task is set on the day, and sometimes changed as the weather conditions become clearer, so the NOTAMS won't tell you the route.
If you were flying near a gliding site with a NOTAMed competition it might well be worth making the call (129.975 or 130.1). If the grid is launching all the gliders will be dropped in roughly the same place, and it would be worth knowing about this. If gliders have started to return they may be final gliding at 100kt+, and it would be worth knowing the direction they will be coming from.
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From: Worcs/Glos border
All of the above, plus it's probably worth noting that below about 3000' you are much more likely to encounter a glider upwind of the gliding site than downwind - so give the upwind side an even wider berth.
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From: Wildest Surrey
I wouldn't recommend flying directly overhead any glider launch site, but it's mainly the cable launch hazard that you need to worry about. While a glider itself will be visible, the cables, being steel, are very narrow and difficult to see, they will also easily saw through a metal or wood/fabric wing, so avoid flying below the cable launch height shown on CAA/NATS published charts (not sure if they're shown on charts from other publishers)
Last edited by chevvron; 12th January 2011 at 17:52.
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From: Toronto
Please Do Call
Our club and many others do have radios.
If there's a frequency, a call to traffic or ground will always be appreciated.
The proportion of students close to the drome below cloudbase and upwind will be high -- and on a middling day, everybody else will be hanging out there too
On a good day when it's bouncy below the cu, we'll be there trying to bag that 300 or 500 km task
The air ambulance, pipeline patrol and one airline are good at making calls.
But there's a whole bunch of itinerant traffic including some twin turboprop outfits and one jet operator (now inop) that should know better that obliviously blast through.
If there's a frequency, a call to traffic or ground will always be appreciated.
The proportion of students close to the drome below cloudbase and upwind will be high -- and on a middling day, everybody else will be hanging out there too
On a good day when it's bouncy below the cu, we'll be there trying to bag that 300 or 500 km task
The air ambulance, pipeline patrol and one airline are good at making calls.
But there's a whole bunch of itinerant traffic including some twin turboprop outfits and one jet operator (now inop) that should know better that obliviously blast through.
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From: Plumpton Green
... shown on CAA published charts ...
VFR & Chart Information | Airspace Policy
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From: E Anglia
I don't think there's much point in trying to call gliding sites: just know where they are.
And IMHO it was remiss of your instructor even to consider allowing you to overfly a gliding site in the first place.
As many have said Wormingford's winch can lob gliders up to 3500ft.
The folly of your route overhead Wormingford was ably demonstrated when you had to take avoiding action.
Far better just not to be there.
Cusco
And IMHO it was remiss of your instructor even to consider allowing you to overfly a gliding site in the first place.
As many have said Wormingford's winch can lob gliders up to 3500ft.
The folly of your route overhead Wormingford was ably demonstrated when you had to take avoiding action.
Far better just not to be there.
Cusco
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From: Third rock from the sun.
As a regular duty pilot at a gliding site I can tell you that as soon as your engine is heard everyone is alert to the possibility of you getting too close. Someone will then spot you and report your position. I will then watch you carefully to determine your track. If I think that you are well clear of the site I'll continue launching gliders. If not I will stop launching until you are clear. Gliders already airborne will be looking out for each other and are likely to see you before you see them. Calling me on the radio won't achieve anything. Please don't fly into our circuit or, if you are going over the top, do so at a height above that shown on the chart.
Happy flying, and thanks for asking the question.
Happy flying, and thanks for asking the question.
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From: UK, US, now more ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
WOW. 3-3.5k from winch. Our release height about 1k+-200ft depending on glider and wind, is nothing compared to this. Too small place for 2-3k release height. I wish, on those 'circuit days' when aerotow would be simply decadent money burning on lowish budget.
True, power guys are likely to be spotted before they see 'us' free flyers.
If one really has to fly near gliding site on their power XC flight, then I guess it's best to pretend it's meatbombing site.
As for the frequencies, even if published, they may be monitored on the ground only. Air to air gliding freq's probably wouldn't be suitable and many 'poodling around' wooden or rag'n'tube gliders may not have radios at all. But then, they'd be more colourful, slow and trying to climb in lift, staying over one area.
True, power guys are likely to be spotted before they see 'us' free flyers.
If one really has to fly near gliding site on their power XC flight, then I guess it's best to pretend it's meatbombing site.
As for the frequencies, even if published, they may be monitored on the ground only. Air to air gliding freq's probably wouldn't be suitable and many 'poodling around' wooden or rag'n'tube gliders may not have radios at all. But then, they'd be more colourful, slow and trying to climb in lift, staying over one area.
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From: UK
I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall for your briefing. You were on a Navex, presumably the instructor asked you to plan a route, and quite possibly asked you to do one that unless you thought about it would take you over a gliding site... I am surprised he let you actually fly over it though. Maybe his own appreciation of the dangers of winch wires isn't what it could be.
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From: Poplar Grove, IL, USA
Here in the US, most glider pilots regard the radio as a superstition. Seems like one thing we have in common with our compatriots across the pond. I agree with backpacker, get above cloudbase and there is little chance of a conflict. That, and see & avoid.
-- IFMU
-- IFMU
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From: Third rock from the sun.
To fly above cloud base on a thermic day would keep anyone clear of most gliders. But as has been said before, some gliders will use the lift that's present within the Cu to climb higher. The British Gliding Association has strict rules governing cloud flying and its usually only very experienced pilots who do it.
When Mountain Lee Wave is present however, gliders will take advantage of this and will fly above cloud base AND tops. Wave can be present well away from the mountains/hills that are creating it, for example in the Vale of York when there is a good westerly. Mr Cessna may not be flying in these conditions at his current stage of training but he might like to discuss the scenario with his instructor.
When Mountain Lee Wave is present however, gliders will take advantage of this and will fly above cloud base AND tops. Wave can be present well away from the mountains/hills that are creating it, for example in the Vale of York when there is a good westerly. Mr Cessna may not be flying in these conditions at his current stage of training but he might like to discuss the scenario with his instructor.
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From: Hampshire
I fly from Lasham gliding. Some sites like ours can be very busy. For example when launching a comptition grid we can have 200+ movements per hour.
The height achieved with the winch depends on the wind strength. Zero wind about 2000ft agl, into a 20knt wind up to our max permitted of 3000ft agl.
Most cross country flying takes place in the top half between ground and cloadbase. However on final glide they will be between these heights and circuit height and typically travelling at high speed 120-160knts.
Big sites like ours have our own frequency and would appreciate a call. I have even spoken to the red arrows in the past.
Our site has launching from the main runway and both left and right landing circuits being flown simultaneously landing on the grass on the relevent side of the runway.
To summerise. Best avoided but if you have to transit nearby please keep a Very good lookout. Glider pilots are used to flying in close proximity to each other (I have been in a thermal with 20+ other gliders) and spend most of the time with their eyes outside the cockpit so will probly see you first
The height achieved with the winch depends on the wind strength. Zero wind about 2000ft agl, into a 20knt wind up to our max permitted of 3000ft agl.
Most cross country flying takes place in the top half between ground and cloadbase. However on final glide they will be between these heights and circuit height and typically travelling at high speed 120-160knts.
Big sites like ours have our own frequency and would appreciate a call. I have even spoken to the red arrows in the past.
Our site has launching from the main runway and both left and right landing circuits being flown simultaneously landing on the grass on the relevent side of the runway.
To summerise. Best avoided but if you have to transit nearby please keep a Very good lookout. Glider pilots are used to flying in close proximity to each other (I have been in a thermal with 20+ other gliders) and spend most of the time with their eyes outside the cockpit so will probly see you first
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From: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
I fly from Darlton; Gamston general aviation is on our doorstep virtually, we're almost in Doncaster's airspace and we have Scampton and Waddington in our back yard. What amazes me is that hole borers will still fly over the site at the minimum alt (2000 in our case) when we have flailing cables and all the other good stuff to bring down an aircraft lurking in the air. Of course it could be due to the fact that the A1 is on our doorstep as well. Please, please give glider sites a wide berth if possible, we are all on radio at our site but it's not much use when you hit that 'after take off thermal', pole into a steep turn and come face to face with Joe Cessna who is flying to the regs but not with any common. OK the onus is see and be seen but in my experience it seems to be me that does all the seeing and getting out of the way, there must be some kind of anti glider coating on light aircraft windscreens.
On a more general note, if the weather is anywhere near reasonable, expect gliders floating around up to 20 miles from the site depending on cloudbase not counting the ones that have decided to do a cross country which could be anywhere frankly. If you look at the proximity of gliding sites on a half mil you can see that on a reasonable day gliders could be all over the shop. Also if we have wave conditions we could be lurking around at FL200, we're not always between the clouds and the hard stuff.
On a more general note, if the weather is anywhere near reasonable, expect gliders floating around up to 20 miles from the site depending on cloudbase not counting the ones that have decided to do a cross country which could be anywhere frankly. If you look at the proximity of gliding sites on a half mil you can see that on a reasonable day gliders could be all over the shop. Also if we have wave conditions we could be lurking around at FL200, we're not always between the clouds and the hard stuff.
Last edited by thing; 15th January 2011 at 21:13.
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From: Oxford, UK
Although some of the bigger gliding clubs may be listening out on the radio if they are expecting a visitor, (prior permission absolutely essential) flying overhead is dangerous, a radio call will not keep you legal or safe. The people listening to the radio are not running an ATC service, and can give no instructions or clearances. An encounter over a gliding site with the braided steel cable used to launch gliders up to 3,000' agl is not desirable.
A collision between a glider and a power plane is more likely to be grief for those trusting in engines. Most recently,an RAF Tutor doing aeros in a crowded corridor on a good soaring day flew into a glider from below. The two on the RAF Tutor died. The glider pilot parachuted to safety.
A while ago, a K13 glider not far from Aylesbury/Thame was struck from behind, about two feet of the wing was sliced off. The power plane crashed and the occupants did not survive. The K13 glider was able to land safely in a field.
Gliding sites are well marked on your charts and should be avoided. The advice to plan your flight well above cloudbase should give a safer and smoother ride
A collision between a glider and a power plane is more likely to be grief for those trusting in engines. Most recently,an RAF Tutor doing aeros in a crowded corridor on a good soaring day flew into a glider from below. The two on the RAF Tutor died. The glider pilot parachuted to safety.
A while ago, a K13 glider not far from Aylesbury/Thame was struck from behind, about two feet of the wing was sliced off. The power plane crashed and the occupants did not survive. The K13 glider was able to land safely in a field.
Gliding sites are well marked on your charts and should be avoided. The advice to plan your flight well above cloudbase should give a safer and smoother ride