Touch and goes during solo flight (student pilot in USA)
The first solo is primarily a confidence builder for the student. Prior to going solo the instructor should observe 3 consecutive landings that are safe before authorising the solo. By now, the student will have been flying for around 30 minutes; by the time the instructor has climbed out and sent the student off for his first solo Ex 14, 45 minutes will have elapsed and the student is starting to go off the boil; its now time to stop go for a beer and let the student celebrate, not do more circuits! With his first solo behind him the student can then get on and do his consolidation circuits after a further dual check.
I would never dream of sending a student off for more than one circuit on a first solo.
I would never dream of sending a student off for more than one circuit on a first solo.
Moderator
What circumstances could force a first-solo student to do a touch-and-go instead of a full stop landing?
If you landed, and took off again, without really slowning down much on the ground, I think it was a touch and go, even if unintended.
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I think some are missing the point. A T&G is a landing followed by a take-off in the take off configuration. A landing that unintentionally develops into a take-off is most probably a G/A that is commenced in the landing configuration. I put it to you that a student who needs to consider turning a landing into a take-off because he has landed long should not have been sent solo, due to the fact he didn't recognise he was going to land long!
I have observed two aircraft depart the runway on a T&G, one being under the control of a qualified pilot. The other, a student pilot on his second or third solo trip got himself confused on the roll - he applied power and then raised the flaps just as the aircraft became airborne. The aircraft sank on to the runway and the student then lost control. No excuse, but an example of a student not having absolute clarity about the actions required.
Pilot DAR, absolutely right. At the formative stages of training a student must think that every approach will result in a G/A. If things are going well, that G/A may become a landing that may still turn into a G/A. Only after a successful landing should the student pilot now consider doing something rather efficient (no other reason for a T&G) and reconfigure the aircraft for take-off whilst trundling down the runway at 50kts.
I reiterate, I'm talking about basic PPL students with maybe no more than 10 hours or so in their logbooks.
I have observed two aircraft depart the runway on a T&G, one being under the control of a qualified pilot. The other, a student pilot on his second or third solo trip got himself confused on the roll - he applied power and then raised the flaps just as the aircraft became airborne. The aircraft sank on to the runway and the student then lost control. No excuse, but an example of a student not having absolute clarity about the actions required.
Pilot DAR, absolutely right. At the formative stages of training a student must think that every approach will result in a G/A. If things are going well, that G/A may become a landing that may still turn into a G/A. Only after a successful landing should the student pilot now consider doing something rather efficient (no other reason for a T&G) and reconfigure the aircraft for take-off whilst trundling down the runway at 50kts.
I reiterate, I'm talking about basic PPL students with maybe no more than 10 hours or so in their logbooks.
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Bose
You may be a wonderful instructor and I am sure you are. That doesnt take away from the fact in this thread that some have never done touch and goes and some have even been banned from doing them.
Obviously a student on his first solo is going to probably do one circuit to a full stop and then continue his/her training from there.
The facts are that once in that aircraft on his/her own there is no one there to help. 99.9% of the time the circuit will be uneventful but there is always the small chance that some of those skills will be required due to an unforeseen situation.
He maybe too high, land badly, get a blockage on the runway or whatever.
While a first solo student is on a learning path once in an aircraft alone they should have the basic skills to handle any situation which may arise in completing that circuit. That includes touch and goes!This thread seems to indicate that "some" are sent on first solo without those skills?
Quote:
All student pilots must be able to effect consistently safe G/As before solo, including recovery from a bounced landing etc. However, I can foresee circumstances where student pilots may have never done T&Gs before solo.
Pace
You may be a wonderful instructor and I am sure you are. That doesnt take away from the fact in this thread that some have never done touch and goes and some have even been banned from doing them.
Obviously a student on his first solo is going to probably do one circuit to a full stop and then continue his/her training from there.
The facts are that once in that aircraft on his/her own there is no one there to help. 99.9% of the time the circuit will be uneventful but there is always the small chance that some of those skills will be required due to an unforeseen situation.
He maybe too high, land badly, get a blockage on the runway or whatever.
While a first solo student is on a learning path once in an aircraft alone they should have the basic skills to handle any situation which may arise in completing that circuit. That includes touch and goes!This thread seems to indicate that "some" are sent on first solo without those skills?
Quote:
All student pilots must be able to effect consistently safe G/As before solo, including recovery from a bounced landing etc. However, I can foresee circumstances where student pilots may have never done T&Gs before solo.
Pace
What are you bringing to the discussion?
The objective of the FIRST SOLO is a confidence building exercise. Trust me when you have sent a few solo the difference in attitude and skills is vast. Therefore the objective of the first solo is to make the whole event as undemanding as possible. I generally prefer to send them solo for a single circuit but for the better candidates and better conditions I would send them for a couple of full stops. It is all about confidence building. Sadly these days flying in the corporate treadmill I don't get to send people solo that often but hopefully with the new job on the horizon I will.
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CowsgettingBigger
Nice try but cannot buy it
Certainly not trying to point score but lets get clear what is a GO AROUND and what is a TOUCH AND GO?
A Go Around is any point on an approach to landing that a Pilot decides for whatever reason to abort the landing and GOES AROUND!
A TOUCH and GO is just what it says! Any point from touching down that the Pilot decides for whatever reason to takeoff again.
Its as simple as that
I hope a discussion on why SOME instructors think its OK to send a student solo instructed to do Go Arounds but NOT touch and goes??? In the event that on their one circuit SOLO god help them they have to do one!
No I am not an instructor just an ATP Corporate jet Captain and jet ferry pilot as well as having 3000 hrs in piston twins and having flown to many corners of the globe so what can I bring to the discussion? prob not a lot!
Must get my instructor certificate
Pace
Nice try but cannot buy it
Certainly not trying to point score but lets get clear what is a GO AROUND and what is a TOUCH AND GO?A Go Around is any point on an approach to landing that a Pilot decides for whatever reason to abort the landing and GOES AROUND!
A TOUCH and GO is just what it says! Any point from touching down that the Pilot decides for whatever reason to takeoff again.
Its as simple as that
What are you bringing to the discussion?
No I am not an instructor just an ATP Corporate jet Captain and jet ferry pilot as well as having 3000 hrs in piston twins and having flown to many corners of the globe so what can I bring to the discussion? prob not a lot!
Must get my instructor certificate
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 8th Jan 2011 at 19:52.
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Pace, not meant to be a pissing contest. I can equal your hours and corporate/ferry experience which brings us back to my question about about what you bring to the table regarding Instruction?
As I said before, we don't send students solo without the required skills. However we do send them solo in a controlled manner. How about respecting that?
As I said before, we don't send students solo without the required skills. However we do send them solo in a controlled manner. How about respecting that?
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Pace
Let us take the average PPL student in his 172. He is taught to set 30deg flap and 65kts on final approach to land. If he lands, he will ensure the aircraft is under control, vacate the runway, clean up and taxi back. If at any point on the approach he needs to Go Around, he will apply full power, select a suitable attitude to arrest descent, remove one stage of flap to 20deg and then select a suitable attitude to climb away. He will subsequently raise the rest of the flap at some point where he isn't close to the ground and reposition.
Take the same chap who is doing T&Gs. The approach and landing will be the same, notably using 30deg flap. He will then raise all the flap, maybe adjust the trim, keep the aircraft aligned with the centreline and finally apply full power to take off.
The final scenario. The student pilot plans on landing (or indeed a T&G) but bounces (Touch?) the aircraft. At this point, you and I would probably do something rather clever with power to recover the landing. Without exception, every training school i have ever know teaches the low-time PPL student to throw this landing away and try again. So, the aircraft is about 5-10ft above the runway with speed decaying and AOA approaching a scary number. At this point does the student do his T&G checks (raise flaps to T/O, achieve centreline then add power) or does he do his G/A checks (full power, appropriate attitude, gradually retract flaps)? The argument is similar in the event that the student pilot cannot maintain enough directional control to keep the aircraft on the runway.
Keep it simple.
Let us take the average PPL student in his 172. He is taught to set 30deg flap and 65kts on final approach to land. If he lands, he will ensure the aircraft is under control, vacate the runway, clean up and taxi back. If at any point on the approach he needs to Go Around, he will apply full power, select a suitable attitude to arrest descent, remove one stage of flap to 20deg and then select a suitable attitude to climb away. He will subsequently raise the rest of the flap at some point where he isn't close to the ground and reposition.
Take the same chap who is doing T&Gs. The approach and landing will be the same, notably using 30deg flap. He will then raise all the flap, maybe adjust the trim, keep the aircraft aligned with the centreline and finally apply full power to take off.
The final scenario. The student pilot plans on landing (or indeed a T&G) but bounces (Touch?) the aircraft. At this point, you and I would probably do something rather clever with power to recover the landing. Without exception, every training school i have ever know teaches the low-time PPL student to throw this landing away and try again. So, the aircraft is about 5-10ft above the runway with speed decaying and AOA approaching a scary number. At this point does the student do his T&G checks (raise flaps to T/O, achieve centreline then add power) or does he do his G/A checks (full power, appropriate attitude, gradually retract flaps)? The argument is similar in the event that the student pilot cannot maintain enough directional control to keep the aircraft on the runway.
Keep it simple.
Last edited by Cows getting bigger; 8th Jan 2011 at 20:11.
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I still hold fast as an experienced pilot that NO student PPL should be sent solo without dual instruction on anything he may encounter on his first solo.
A student cannot be asked to make a solo landing without being fully versed in making a go-around. During every approach, during every second of every approach to land, one is faced with either the possibility of continuing to land, or the need to go around. The student must, therefore, be prepared to do either one.
On the runway, it's a slightly different matter. I first began running into the notion that schools wouldn't allow touch and go landings, about fifteen years ago. I was shocked at the time. I couldn't believe anyone wouldn't teach a touch and go, let alone that they would prohibit this function in an airplane. Especially a light airplane.
There's little difference between a touch and go, and a go-around initiated close to or on the runway. They become the same thing, really. There are certainly times when someone may have landed long, rolled too far, and may not have enough runway to go around or to a touch and go. There are some cases, such as conventional gear training (tailwheel training), when stop-and-go work is important to include that all-important transition with the tailwheel coming down to terra firm again. However, the ability to execute a touch and go is the same ability that allows a student to recover from a pilot-induced oscillation on the runway, a bad bounce, a bad landing, a high flare, or any number of other common errors. A student having trouble with a landing, including a crosswind landing, is very often much, much better off taking the airplane around in the safety of the air, than trying to salvage a bad situation.
Go-arounds, as they say are free. Stacking the airplane up alongside the runway while trying to salvage a bad landing, is not.
No student should be sent solo who can't do flaps-up and no-flap landings. No student should be sent solo who can't go-around. No student should be sent solo who can't go around while on the runway...but we call that a touch-and-go (or bumps and circuits, as the case may be). No student should be sent solo who can't execute a power-off forced landing. No student should be sent solo who can't detect carburetor ice and apply heat properly. No student should be sent solo that isn't familiar with the performance, emergency procedures, and other important facets of operating that airplane, including limitations.
What is the student to do, when solo if a requirement for this knowledge comes up, and the instructor hasn't provided it?
Instructors who fail to provide it, and indeed schools that fail to insist on it being taught, are failing the student, and the student should seek proper instruction elsewhere.
Yes, many schools do prohibit touch and go landings. Much better the school teach properly, than elect to put such stupid limitations on what should be a basic part of being taught to fly the airplane.
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I have het to see a single example where anyone is suggesting that a studentnis sent solo without being prepared. However on a first solo there are many reasons whynan Instructor may Wang a student to do touch and goes.
Those who have never sent a sudent solo might just struggle to appreciate this....
Those who have never sent a sudent solo might just struggle to appreciate this....
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I don't really see the problem with doing touch and goes on first solo flight, provided the runway is long enough (let's say at least 1500m) and student can easily reconfigure the aircraft without using half the runway in the process.
In most training aircraft (for PPL) the only thing you need to do on the ground during touch and go is retract the flaps if extended (fully or to a proper takeoff setting) and apply takeoff power. And if a student pilot isn't capable of maintaining centerline (approximately, but solos normally aren't done in strong crosswinds) while retracting flaps and applying full throttle, he shouldn't be sent solo anyway. And even on the chance he/she forgot to raise the flap, most training aircraft will climb despite being in full dirty configuration - but most students would probably sense something is wrong quite fast, since the aircraft would nor accelerate nor climb as nearly as good as on first takeoff.
I agree with SNS3Guppy, not all go-arounds are done from 50-100ft, go-around might be called for (reason is really the least important thing when initiating go-around) when both main and nose gear is on the ground. And then - how does this kind of go-around differ from touch and go?
What really scares me, is some of you talking to a pre-solo student as someone with "10 hours". I always though the skill showed by the student allowed him to go solo, not hours in logbook - we as a people are all different: a student with an extensive gliding experience may solo in 5 hours, a very slow learner with long breaks between lessons might not do it in 50. But at the end, both of them will have to show proper and continuous skill to the instructor. My opinion: if a student isn't able to do consecutive touch and goes without any input from an instructor, he shouldn't be allowed to solo.
In most training aircraft (for PPL) the only thing you need to do on the ground during touch and go is retract the flaps if extended (fully or to a proper takeoff setting) and apply takeoff power. And if a student pilot isn't capable of maintaining centerline (approximately, but solos normally aren't done in strong crosswinds) while retracting flaps and applying full throttle, he shouldn't be sent solo anyway. And even on the chance he/she forgot to raise the flap, most training aircraft will climb despite being in full dirty configuration - but most students would probably sense something is wrong quite fast, since the aircraft would nor accelerate nor climb as nearly as good as on first takeoff.
I agree with SNS3Guppy, not all go-arounds are done from 50-100ft, go-around might be called for (reason is really the least important thing when initiating go-around) when both main and nose gear is on the ground. And then - how does this kind of go-around differ from touch and go?
What really scares me, is some of you talking to a pre-solo student as someone with "10 hours". I always though the skill showed by the student allowed him to go solo, not hours in logbook - we as a people are all different: a student with an extensive gliding experience may solo in 5 hours, a very slow learner with long breaks between lessons might not do it in 50. But at the end, both of them will have to show proper and continuous skill to the instructor. My opinion: if a student isn't able to do consecutive touch and goes without any input from an instructor, he shouldn't be allowed to solo.
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directional control to keep the aircraft on the runway
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Normally we expect to see several touch and goes done well before we send someone solo. That is different from the SOP fir actually sending someone solo.
As I have sent more than enough solo over the years to be unrestricted then I suspect I might have a valid input over the students or corporate pilots giving sage advice.
Sending a student on a FIRST solo is just about the most difficult thing an FI will ever do. It is quite natural to expect them to do risk limitation
Even these days in a corporate training environment I am risk adverse......
As I have sent more than enough solo over the years to be unrestricted then I suspect I might have a valid input over the students or corporate pilots giving sage advice.
Sending a student on a FIRST solo is just about the most difficult thing an FI will ever do. It is quite natural to expect them to do risk limitation
Even these days in a corporate training environment I am risk adverse......
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Typically for a first solo, I have the student do a full stop on the runway. I get out, and wait by the runway while the student performs three touch and go landing, and a full stop.
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I have long been out of the rental scene, , but in the days when I was renting, the local flying club would not only not permit T and Gs by students, but would also not allow them to be carried out by PPLs when flying club aircraft. I will bet a pound to a penny the same rules still apply.
When soloed in a C-150, I had been doing T&Gs for a number of lessons; so, when the instructor left, I continued doing what I had been doing. There is a benefit on first solo to make it as close as possible to what was happening with the instructor onboard.
When I was soloed on a taildragger on a short sloped strip, I began with stop and goes even though I had been doing T&Gs with the instructor in back; then took it to a 5000' runway for T&Gs. Once more comfortable and consistent with the a/c, did T&Gs on the short, sloped strip.
It's all about looking at the situation with your current skill level and putting the odds in your favor. Either the PIC does that or the instructor does.
When I was soloed on a taildragger on a short sloped strip, I began with stop and goes even though I had been doing T&Gs with the instructor in back; then took it to a 5000' runway for T&Gs. Once more comfortable and consistent with the a/c, did T&Gs on the short, sloped strip.
It's all about looking at the situation with your current skill level and putting the odds in your favor. Either the PIC does that or the instructor does.
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flight schools will make a lot more money if you do 3 full stop landings rather than 3 touch and goes.
Larger airports may not want you backtracking the runway with other arriving and departing aircraft and you could be asked to clear and taxi round if you want to do full stop landings.
We have to differentiate between using touch and goes to cram in as many landings as possible in a given time and where the technique of touch and goes are as safety related as the go around.
A bad landing, obstruction on the runway. Misjudged touch down etc.
It is a vital safety technique.
I had one in the citation at a Swiss airport where a piper cub mistakenly pulled onto the runway from an intersection.
It is a technique which obviously has potential perils if used incorrectly.
Having the mindset that I will land and stop at all costs because I have not been taught how to safely execute a touch and go is a high risk approach to take.
It takes judgement on whether you are better attempting to stop in a situation or whether you are better taking off back into the air!
We are probably at cross purposes because I am arguing it as a safety technique which needs to be mastered before solo while others are saying that it should not be used by early students on solo circuits to cram in as many landings as possible in a set time.
The touch and go used for circuits obviously has by its nature more risk of a mistake than a straight deceleration to a full stop especially when used by early inexperieced solo students.
That was not what caused this row. It was me arguing a point that the touch and go which covers everything from a pure touch and taking back to the air in a fraction of a second to deciding to takeoff again after a prolonged deceleration is as vital a technique to master pre solo with an instructor as stalling.
The other confusion between us is what other posters here classify as a Go Around and what makes a touch and go.
Pace
Larger airports may not want you backtracking the runway with other arriving and departing aircraft and you could be asked to clear and taxi round if you want to do full stop landings.
We have to differentiate between using touch and goes to cram in as many landings as possible in a given time and where the technique of touch and goes are as safety related as the go around.
A bad landing, obstruction on the runway. Misjudged touch down etc.
It is a vital safety technique.
I had one in the citation at a Swiss airport where a piper cub mistakenly pulled onto the runway from an intersection.
It is a technique which obviously has potential perils if used incorrectly.
Having the mindset that I will land and stop at all costs because I have not been taught how to safely execute a touch and go is a high risk approach to take.
It takes judgement on whether you are better attempting to stop in a situation or whether you are better taking off back into the air!
We are probably at cross purposes because I am arguing it as a safety technique which needs to be mastered before solo while others are saying that it should not be used by early students on solo circuits to cram in as many landings as possible in a set time.
The touch and go used for circuits obviously has by its nature more risk of a mistake than a straight deceleration to a full stop especially when used by early inexperieced solo students.
That was not what caused this row. It was me arguing a point that the touch and go which covers everything from a pure touch and taking back to the air in a fraction of a second to deciding to takeoff again after a prolonged deceleration is as vital a technique to master pre solo with an instructor as stalling.
The other confusion between us is what other posters here classify as a Go Around and what makes a touch and go.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 9th Jan 2011 at 06:06.
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Pace, we agree although we obviously have differing terminology. For clarity (after all, that is what the student needs) it is important to teach the student pilot how to 'get airborne again' after an unplanned event. It is reasonable to expect that in this scenario, the student will (may?) not have reconfigured his aircraft for take-off. I disagree with SNS in his assertion that a T&G and G/A are essentially the same thing. The aim and the outcome may be the same, but the techniques used may be very different.
I should also emphasise that we are talking about low-houred student pilots (someone had an issue with my 10 hour comment - that was merely an attempt to describe an approximate level of experience) who do not have the experience to make 'complex' decisions; at that stage of their training they need a black or white, out of the bag solution.
I should also emphasise that we are talking about low-houred student pilots (someone had an issue with my 10 hour comment - that was merely an attempt to describe an approximate level of experience) who do not have the experience to make 'complex' decisions; at that stage of their training they need a black or white, out of the bag solution.
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I agree with Guppy here. A student needs to be trained in all aspects of landing possibilities before being sent solo. At the flight school I taught at, the students often did T&G's on first solo without any problems.... runway length 800 m! And if it's a field with only one runway and no taxiway (=backtracking) be sure that T&G's only will be done. Usually we'd fly one pattern with the student, and if all went well, make a full stop, taxi to the apron, then climb out and he/she was on their own for at least 3 T&G's or full stops.... student decision!
I remember a story about a kid on his first solo having to go around and fly to a completely different field! In spite of weather warnings, the instructor let him solo. The first two went well, on the third the squall line approached with high winds! He couldn't land safely. He ended up flying off to the East, ahead of the squall line and landed at the next best field he found.... luckily an easy, flat one about 35 NM away from his home base (I was there at the time and observed his safe landing).
I remember a story about a kid on his first solo having to go around and fly to a completely different field! In spite of weather warnings, the instructor let him solo. The first two went well, on the third the squall line approached with high winds! He couldn't land safely. He ended up flying off to the East, ahead of the squall line and landed at the next best field he found.... luckily an easy, flat one about 35 NM away from his home base (I was there at the time and observed his safe landing).