Can we go back to making planes out of wood again now?
In France they never stopped building planes out of wood - and to good results, too. One of the best ratio's of empty weight vs. max gross was/is achieved by a Robin plane made of mostly wood
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I believe the reason F1 cars use wood for the skid block is that its job is to reveal if the car setup has been made too low - in this case the "wooden" skid block will wear and part of the post-race scrutineering is to ensure that the skid block is above a certain height - if not it's been worn away so the car was setup with too low a stance. (BTW Pace - Minardi haven't raced in F1 since 2005 so that's a pretty old quote you've found there).
So if the above is correct this is a counter point to the intention with which it was posted - the wood is used specifically because it's WEAKER than the carbon fibre in this case.
Just picking up on this point though, I'm all in favour of wood in preference to CF in plane construction
, and as for "naturally optimized, linearly organized cellulose composite", that's priceless BPF 
So if the above is correct this is a counter point to the intention with which it was posted - the wood is used specifically because it's WEAKER than the carbon fibre in this case.
Just picking up on this point though, I'm all in favour of wood in preference to CF in plane construction
, and as for "naturally optimized, linearly organized cellulose composite", that's priceless BPF
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Don't Airbus and Boeing use oak skid boards (and rather big ones too) on the tail when they're doing certification testing of new aircraft? Particularly taking off and landing with too low speeds, so that the tail scrapes the ground?
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BTW Pace - Minardi haven't raced in F1 since 2005 so that's a pretty old quote you've found there).
Too fast a google
of course you are right but they are still used todayPace
I had a fascinating conversation not long ago with a famous and scarily clever light aircraft designer.
He told me that he's currently doing experiments with carbon-balsa-carbon sandwich composition, and thinks that this might be, for him, the next generation of light aircraft design technology.
I'm pretty sure that EAP (the predecessor of the Typhoon) also used balsa, somewhere in the leading edges I think.
G
He told me that he's currently doing experiments with carbon-balsa-carbon sandwich composition, and thinks that this might be, for him, the next generation of light aircraft design technology.
I'm pretty sure that EAP (the predecessor of the Typhoon) also used balsa, somewhere in the leading edges I think.
G
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I am confused?
I thought a plane was used to shape/cut wood?
Some more info on f1,
The Skid Block was introduced as part of the safety changes that followed Ayrton Senna's death. The block is usually made of a material called Jabroc. Jabroc is made of beechwood and built in a composite process. Veneers are layered and a high strength resin is used in each layer. They are pressurized and pressed, and brought to a certain and very consistent material density. As a result each Jabroc skid plank is all but identical in terms of wear rate and material density.
The plank does not in itself restrict airflow under the car. It is used as a gauge which restricts the minimum ride height attainable by the car. The closer the car is to the ground, the more efficient the front wing and rear diffuser. The higher the down force levels, the faster a driver may corner. Cornering at high speed is considered excessively dangerous and so the skid block was introduced to counteract this. The thickness of the plank is one of the parc ferme tests. If it is found to be worn beyond the allowed limit the car is disqualified.
Trying to compare F1 to aviation is a pretty big stretch, F1 teams have a virtually unlimited budget and will spend many millions to gain one tenth of a second a lap or less. A lot of F1 technology has made it into everyday life but has had to be made more reliable and cheaper to do so.
I thought a plane was used to shape/cut wood?
Some more info on f1,
The Skid Block was introduced as part of the safety changes that followed Ayrton Senna's death. The block is usually made of a material called Jabroc. Jabroc is made of beechwood and built in a composite process. Veneers are layered and a high strength resin is used in each layer. They are pressurized and pressed, and brought to a certain and very consistent material density. As a result each Jabroc skid plank is all but identical in terms of wear rate and material density.
The plank does not in itself restrict airflow under the car. It is used as a gauge which restricts the minimum ride height attainable by the car. The closer the car is to the ground, the more efficient the front wing and rear diffuser. The higher the down force levels, the faster a driver may corner. Cornering at high speed is considered excessively dangerous and so the skid block was introduced to counteract this. The thickness of the plank is one of the parc ferme tests. If it is found to be worn beyond the allowed limit the car is disqualified.
Trying to compare F1 to aviation is a pretty big stretch, F1 teams have a virtually unlimited budget and will spend many millions to gain one tenth of a second a lap or less. A lot of F1 technology has made it into everyday life but has had to be made more reliable and cheaper to do so.
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Wood has some great properties for engineering, always has, but its a bit inconsistent in the raw form. Hence plywood is more consistent and used for that reason.
Wood covered with CF can have outstanding properties.
Jabroc is a often used as a tooling block in aircraft manufacture. Because its cheap, light, easy to machine and stable.
Wood covered with CF can have outstanding properties.
Jabroc is a often used as a tooling block in aircraft manufacture. Because its cheap, light, easy to machine and stable.
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Perhaps as one would make a wooden boat.Nostalgia.But mass production No.I,m sure it will be agreed that that the cheapest manufacturing is in tubular and fabric combinations with some carbon fiber in there.
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Def not cheaper.
Think about it - it would take exactly as long doing a hand lay up of wood ply sheet into a mold and then covering it with epoxy as it would a woven carbon fibre mat.
Wood is only labour intensive if one constructs with it as one did 100 years ago. It's moved on from cabinetry.
Think about it - it would take exactly as long doing a hand lay up of wood ply sheet into a mold and then covering it with epoxy as it would a woven carbon fibre mat.
Wood is only labour intensive if one constructs with it as one did 100 years ago. It's moved on from cabinetry.
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What a lot of facinating thoughts on the use of wood!
Mr.X99, how regrettable that I have started a thread which offends you such that you ask to have it deleted.... Did you actually bother to read my opening post before asking to have it deleted? It's not really about making planes out of wood at all.....
Mr.X99, how regrettable that I have started a thread which offends you such that you ask to have it deleted.... Did you actually bother to read my opening post before asking to have it deleted? It's not really about making planes out of wood at all.....
Unlikely though it might seem, it is not impossible there's a grain of humour in X99's last writing. I mean, even a fervent advocate of microlight flying could not seriously imagine a wooden A380, could he?
The greatest tradition of building aircraft from wood lives in France. Do you really believe they ever imported a single tree from Alaska into France? Most likely never even heard of it. But even in the USA, other woods were used, Oregon pine at least. And I remember a usenet discussion about a particular kind of wood only available in Australia that was judged very good for building aircraft.
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and that Sitka spruce
The lesser availability of large trees, is giving rise to great development of laminated products for building construction. Where in the past I would have had trouble buying a single piece of wood 20 feet long, by 1 foot wide by 2 inches thick. Now, I have many lamitate choices in these, and greater dimensions. We don't need the big, perfectly straight grained trees any more, technology has advanced.....
Well, if it is that good, where are all the Mossies?
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"Normally on return only the crew chief met the aircraft along with ground transportation to pick up the crew. But now there were a number of men including the maintenance officer and operations staff waiting to inspect the damaged Mosquito. We returned to operations in a jeep rather than the old weapons carrier normally used.
"Repairing the damaged Mosquito is a story in itself. An English repair party arrived from the de Havilland factory. I visited the hangar and observed the civilians sawing the left wing off with a giant saw --a large lumber saw, similar to those used for cutting down trees. The workmen sawed right through the spar! They brought in a replacement wing, glued it on with splices, covered another piece of plywood over and placed a band around the splice joint with all kinds of screws in it.
"I met Bob Howle, my squadron commander and said, `My God, Major, I'm not going to fly that dam plane. They cut the wing off and all they did was glue another one back on. That thing will fall off. I'm not going to fly it.'
"He asked what I wanted and I told him I wanted a different airplane. He issued me a requisition form. They had a group of new Mosquitoes parked in a storage area to replace the ones we lost. I received a new Mosquito, had it painted in regulation markings and flew it.
"The maintenance officer, Capt. Robert Shoenhair, when he heard my refusal to fly the re-winged Mosquito replied, 'Hell I'll fly it.' And he did--he flew it the rest of the war!"
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The greatest tradition of building aircraft from wood lives in France. Do you really believe they ever imported a single tree from Alaska into France? Most likely never even heard of it. But even in the USA, other woods were used, Oregon pine at least. And I remember a usenet discussion about a particular kind of wood only available in Australia that was judged very good for building aircraft.
While spruce is a popular wood for aircraft construction, so is hoop pine, douglas fir, in some cases pine, and other types of wood as well. I prefer spruce for it's easy in working. it tends to be more consistent.
It does not come from only one source, however.
Wooden aircraft do not need to be hangared. It's preferable, but not necessary, any more than aircraft with wooden propellers must be hangared.
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“Not sure how you arrive at the idea that France has the greatest tradition of wooden aircraft”
Because the Jodel wing is still one of the most efficient wings in GA? Because Robin has been making a version of that wing in one of the best C of A aircraft for many years? Because this wing is made of wood?
In Europe there are probably more Jodel winged wooden aircraft by an order of magnitude, then any other type.
A DR400 with a given engine size will out perform any traditional metal aircraft with the same size engine. The new carbon aircraft have finally trumped it, but at increased cost. The Robin DR400 Ecoflyer is one of the best, most economical machines for the money you can get.
Have you not flown a Jodel?
Rod1
Because the Jodel wing is still one of the most efficient wings in GA? Because Robin has been making a version of that wing in one of the best C of A aircraft for many years? Because this wing is made of wood?
In Europe there are probably more Jodel winged wooden aircraft by an order of magnitude, then any other type.
A DR400 with a given engine size will out perform any traditional metal aircraft with the same size engine. The new carbon aircraft have finally trumped it, but at increased cost. The Robin DR400 Ecoflyer is one of the best, most economical machines for the money you can get.
Have you not flown a Jodel?
Rod1