How Quick are your checks?
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If somebody just starts up (in a piston) and flies straight off with a cold engine, they are IMHO nuts. I see renters do all kinds of stunts (not least because they are getting billed brakes-off to brakes-on) but I would not do it in my own plane.
Problems with students and new PPLs doing checks at the hold can be caused by the way their instructor teaches them. When your fairly new to it all you tend to just copy what you have been told instead of thinking for yourself, to point you will try and get into the exact spot you were in when you where shown by the instructor.
It took a while before it dawned on me that there was no reason at all that I could not do the power checks on the apron instead of the hold, the way the aircraft get parked means there's nothing to get damaged, pre take-off checks (take no more than a few seconds) still done at the hold or on one of our runways the hold point is so far away from runway they can be done when rolling to line up.
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Having flown with about 7 or 8 different instructors none of them ever mentioned anything about letting the engine warm until my IMC instructor just made a comment about it in conversation.
I fly in a MC invironment. We spend a long time checking the aircraft and all the other things required before the flight so that the aircraft is ready to go when the PAX arrive.
It took a while before it dawned on me that there was no reason at all that I could not do the power checks on the apron instead of the hold, the way the aircraft get parked means there's nothing to get damaged, pre take-off checks (take no more than a few seconds) still done at the hold or on one of our runways the hold point is so far away from runway they can be done when rolling to line up.
Checks, particularly carburetor heat checks, should be done as closely as possible to takeoff. The check isn't just to verify an RPM drop, but to ensure that any carburetor ice is removed. Mag checks verify not only that the P lead is connected and the switch contacts good, but that the mags plugs haven't loaded up and we dont' ahve a bad magneto. It's very possible to have a good mag check on the ramp at the parking spot, and have the engine die during the takeoff from carb ice or fouling because of developments during the taxi time to the runway.
One slow speed which can give the PAX the idea that you are such a bad pilot you need a guide to fly a bit like the German pilot in those magnificent men and their flying machines with a how to fly an aeroplane hand book. He was fine until the handbook blew out of his hands and stuck on the tail of the plane where was he then??? He had to climb out and retrieve it)
I don't know what you're trying to say with the "one slow speed which can give..." bit, though.
On occasion because I know my co pilot well and the aircraft very well I will run the checks from memory while getting the co to read them out and visually check the items on the move. We still confirm those items.
The point I am tying to make is that as a pilot there are occasions when you have to up the game and knowing not just the aircraft but the check items facilitates a smooth, prompt operation.
The point I am tying to make is that as a pilot there are occasions when you have to up the game and knowing not just the aircraft but the check items facilitates a smooth, prompt operation.
I still hold with the fact that there are occasions on the ground and in the air where knowing your checklist from memory with the checklist as backup is a far safer way than letting the aircraft run away from you and other events overtake you.
The times when you should be on page 4 of your checklist not page 2
The times when you should be on page 4 of your checklist not page 2
Memory and stabilization items should always be accomplished without need for a checklist. Once the situation is stabilized, especially in an emergency, one should absolutely proceed with the checklist, and one should read everything, including the stabilization items already performed.
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Checks, particularly carburetor heat checks, should be done as closely as possible to takeoff. The check isn't just to verify an RPM drop, but to ensure that any carburetor ice is removed. Mag checks verify not only that the P lead is connected and the switch contacts good, but that the mags plugs haven't loaded up and we dont' ahve a bad magneto. It's very possible to have a good mag check on the ramp at the parking spot, and have the engine die during the takeoff from carb ice or fouling because of developments during the taxi time to the runway.
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That depends on the correctness of the idle mixture setting, which leads to the next obvious question: how many do post flight runs and checks, including idle mixture checks, as recommended by engine manufacturers?
How many do a thorough postflight? It should take as long as the preflight.
How many do a thorough postflight? It should take as long as the preflight.
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Originally Posted by SNS3Guppy
That depends on the correctness of the idle mixture setting, which leads to the next obvious question: how many do post flight runs and checks, including idle mixture checks, as recommended by engine manufacturers?
How many do a thorough postflight? It should take as long as the preflight.
How many do a thorough postflight? It should take as long as the preflight.
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Both Lycoming and Continental have postflight procedures, including postflight runups and idle mixture checks.
Both the engine and airframe should be thoroughly postflighted, just as they are preflighted.
Both the engine and airframe should be thoroughly postflighted, just as they are preflighted.
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“Postflight procedures” is not a term I had come across, but I assume is the same as shutdown procedures? Some engines require a minimum idle time before switching the mags off etc
Rod1
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Multi Crew rather than SP single pilot.
Slow speed!?
I have flown with many good pilots they all have one thing in common and that is the ability to pick up their game to suit the situation.
Of course any pilot has to fly within their capabilities safely some are what I call one speed and there is nothing wrong with that until the situation changes where one speed means getting behind the aircraft or the big picture.
The one speed? I knew a pilot who was meticulous in pre flight planning took an eternity running through his checks, had evrything planned to the finest detail. He then ran into a situation in IMC where all his pre planning went out of the window and he was left running on the hoof with no plans and a seriously deteriorating situation. He survived but seriously frightend gave up flying soon after.
I am sure you have had many situations where you know what I am getting at ?
Pace
What is an "MC invironment?"
Slow speed!?
I have flown with many good pilots they all have one thing in common and that is the ability to pick up their game to suit the situation.
Of course any pilot has to fly within their capabilities safely some are what I call one speed and there is nothing wrong with that until the situation changes where one speed means getting behind the aircraft or the big picture.
The one speed? I knew a pilot who was meticulous in pre flight planning took an eternity running through his checks, had evrything planned to the finest detail. He then ran into a situation in IMC where all his pre planning went out of the window and he was left running on the hoof with no plans and a seriously deteriorating situation. He survived but seriously frightend gave up flying soon after.
I am sure you have had many situations where you know what I am getting at ?
Pace
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Rod,
Preflight means the inspection you do before the flight. Postflight means the inspection you do after the flight.
Engines have preflight runup procedures, and essentially the same procedures after the flight.
Checking that the magnetos are properly grounded is something done during the mag check, and this can be done prior to shut down; engine manufacturers also recommend a grounding check in which the switch is shut off. Otherwise, how do you know after shutdown that the mags are really grounded?
An idle mixture check is done to clear the engine and determine how close to ideal the idle mixture is set. This should be done at every shutdown.
Postflight inspections may discover all sorts of things. I've found everything from cracks to oil leaks to missing exhaust parts to bird strikes. Post flight inspections allow you to find maintenance discrepancies and get them reported so that they're written up and fixed (hopefully) before the next flight.
Engine manufacturers recommend post-flight engine runs, mag checks, idle mixture checks, and a "dead mag" check for grounding of the magnetos.
Certainly things may happen under very unusual circumstances that mean one can't adhere to standard procedures. This doesn't happen often. Even in single pilot operations, one generally has time to stabilize the situation and then reference the checklist.
This month we lost a generator while operating into Kabul. The generator took out a second generator and our essential bus, which lost left seat instruments, and the cockpit went dark. It was very early morning, and dark, and we were just leaving a hold to fly an ILS. In fact, we were just turning to intercept the localizer. In a location where few alternates existed, and having been made to hold and given delaying vectors, we didn't have extra fuel to go somewhere and hold for a longer period while we worked it out. The essential bus failure has a stabilizing memory procedure, which we did. We then put one generator back on line, isolated the other and ran it isolated, and continued the approach to land. On the ground we ran the checklist.
Kabul has one runway, and a lot of aircraft wanting to use it. Given local factors, one doesn't necessarily want to go somewhere and hold any longer than one must. Also, given that we were already configured, our fuel burn at the lower altitude was high and fuel was going fast. Accordingly, as we hadn't lost anything that would prevent us from landing, and the three procedures would take a long time to work out, we stabilized, landed, and sorted it out on the ground.
We did reference checklists for the stabilizing items in flight, shot through the remaining checklists very quickly, then troubleshot later at our leisure. We'd have been unable to do all that and brief; we had the approach briefed and everything set up before we descended to the hold, and all descent and approach checklists had already been run. The only checklist remaining prior to landing was the landing checklist, which would be delayed until glideslope intercept.
The point is that preparation early can eliminate a lot of the rush and headache of changing conditions. Organization and prior planning can very often simplify the problem by having much of the distractions already squared away.
MC isn't something I'm familiar with Generally in crew airplanes, a multi crew is assumed; single pilot operations in crew aircraft are the rare exception, and one might refer to those as SP (but will generally just say "single pilot" to avoid confusion). I've never heard of anyone refer to standard operations as "MC." Interesting.
Preflight means the inspection you do before the flight. Postflight means the inspection you do after the flight.
Engines have preflight runup procedures, and essentially the same procedures after the flight.
Checking that the magnetos are properly grounded is something done during the mag check, and this can be done prior to shut down; engine manufacturers also recommend a grounding check in which the switch is shut off. Otherwise, how do you know after shutdown that the mags are really grounded?
An idle mixture check is done to clear the engine and determine how close to ideal the idle mixture is set. This should be done at every shutdown.
Postflight inspections may discover all sorts of things. I've found everything from cracks to oil leaks to missing exhaust parts to bird strikes. Post flight inspections allow you to find maintenance discrepancies and get them reported so that they're written up and fixed (hopefully) before the next flight.
Engine manufacturers recommend post-flight engine runs, mag checks, idle mixture checks, and a "dead mag" check for grounding of the magnetos.
The one speed? I knew a pilot who was meticulous in pre flight planning took an eternity running through his checks, had evrything planned to the finest detail. He then ran into a situation in IMC where all his pre planning went out of the window and he was left running on the hoof with no plans and a seriously deteriorating situation. He survived but seriously frightend gave up flying soon after.
This month we lost a generator while operating into Kabul. The generator took out a second generator and our essential bus, which lost left seat instruments, and the cockpit went dark. It was very early morning, and dark, and we were just leaving a hold to fly an ILS. In fact, we were just turning to intercept the localizer. In a location where few alternates existed, and having been made to hold and given delaying vectors, we didn't have extra fuel to go somewhere and hold for a longer period while we worked it out. The essential bus failure has a stabilizing memory procedure, which we did. We then put one generator back on line, isolated the other and ran it isolated, and continued the approach to land. On the ground we ran the checklist.
Kabul has one runway, and a lot of aircraft wanting to use it. Given local factors, one doesn't necessarily want to go somewhere and hold any longer than one must. Also, given that we were already configured, our fuel burn at the lower altitude was high and fuel was going fast. Accordingly, as we hadn't lost anything that would prevent us from landing, and the three procedures would take a long time to work out, we stabilized, landed, and sorted it out on the ground.
We did reference checklists for the stabilizing items in flight, shot through the remaining checklists very quickly, then troubleshot later at our leisure. We'd have been unable to do all that and brief; we had the approach briefed and everything set up before we descended to the hold, and all descent and approach checklists had already been run. The only checklist remaining prior to landing was the landing checklist, which would be delayed until glideslope intercept.
The point is that preparation early can eliminate a lot of the rush and headache of changing conditions. Organization and prior planning can very often simplify the problem by having much of the distractions already squared away.
MC isn't something I'm familiar with Generally in crew airplanes, a multi crew is assumed; single pilot operations in crew aircraft are the rare exception, and one might refer to those as SP (but will generally just say "single pilot" to avoid confusion). I've never heard of anyone refer to standard operations as "MC." Interesting.
Last edited by SNS3Guppy; 6th Jan 2011 at 23:23.
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MC isn't something I'm familiar with Generally in crew airplanes, a multi crew is assumed; single pilot operations in crew aircraft are the rare exception, and one might refer to those as SP (but will generally just say "single pilot" to avoid confusion). I've never heard of anyone refer to standard operations as "MC." Interesting.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 7th Jan 2011 at 03:56.
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Gotcha. I thought perhaps it was an EU reference with which I'm not familiar.
Regarding taking the time to get ready in an airplane, many moons ago I learned something from my boss, in Kansas. We were a small operation, operating several nearly identical Cessna AgTrucks. We referred to them as "the orange one," "the yellow one," and "the blue one." Otherwise, they were the same, inside and out.
Lain, the owners son, usually flew the blue airplane. One day he took my airplane, the orange one. This particular day, as his father and I looked on (we always kept one pilot on the ground as a lookout during takeoffs and landings, in the event of an emergency), Lain took longer than usual before departing. I asked his father why he thought it was taking so long.
"He's getting to know that airplane." Clarence said. I questioned this; after all, Lain had thousands of hours in AgTrucks, particularly in each of these airplanes.
"Ah." said Clarence. "Lain usually flies the blue one. Today he's in the orange one. They all have a different personality, they all fly a little different."
At my stage in life and career, they all flew about the same, to me. But not to Lain. We used most of the performance envelope of the airplanes during a typical spray flight, usually close to the ground, and taking the airplane right to the buffet in the turns at each end of the field, often at 75' of less, was very common. Accordingly, one needed to be absolutely sure where the airplane would pay off, and exactly what it would, and wouldn't do. Even with thousands of hours in the airplanes, even that airplane, Lain was taking the extra time to get thoroughly familiar and ready for the flight, from doing a quick blindfold check to feeling out the controls.
I didn't fully appreciate the wisdom of what Clarence told me at the time. Today, I do.
A few years ago, I flew a brand new Air Tractor AT-802. It flew like a dream. After a couple of weeks in that airplane, I was sent to fill-in on a very used and abused airplane, which had suffered a hard life. It flew very differently. Not unsafe, but it was like flying an entirely different kind of aircraft. I couldn't get comfortable in it. There were a few cockpit differences, and I spent the better part of two days sitting in the cockpit waiting for a dispatch, going over and over the cockpit with my eyes shut until I was blindfold-ready. I spent hours going over the radios, the nav, the drop system, the controls, the cockpit canopy release, the emergency handle, and so forth. I spent extra time outside the airplane, inspecting it, looking it over, examining, tugging, pulling, tweaking. I inspected every nut and bolt I could find, and every rivet I could see.
The former airplane was easy; get in and go, and I did. The latter airplane required much more attention. I was slower to get in the air, took wider turns on the drop, was more cautious about shoe-horning it into a tight space, and left myself wider outs, and flew it more conservatively.
The time it takes to get ready for a flight, or to conduct a flight (or to handle an emergency in flight) really depends on the airman, the aircraft, the operation, and many other factors that make it an individual experience. I tend to take more time than others. Perhaps I'm thorough, or perhaps just slow. My solution is to start early. Take the time I need. I always keep in mind that there is no flight which must be made. I've flown numerous types of operations, some very pressing. The old saying, "what's the rush, where's the fire?" never applied; I was often going to a fire, but always recognized that I didn't create the emergency, and wasn't about to let the flight become one. If more time was needed to preflight, load, takeoff, divert around terrain, skirt weather, run checklists, handle and onboard situation, communicate, etc, I took it, without any sense of pressure or guilt. No flight must be made; take the time necessary to do what must be done (or don't go).
Certainly moments will arise when the plan must change. Particularly since the recent UPS 6 crash in Dubai, we've been fairly keen on our fire drills when doing training. Take off, get a fire warning, go on oxygen and establish communiations, and do the memory items. Then get immediate vectors back to land; no briefing, no long identification or set up; get back as quickly as possible while addressing the problem as best able. In our scenarios, it's pressing, always resulting in an evacuation after landing (in the sim). That's one of those occasions when one isn't overly concerned about much of the standardized procedure we'd normally do. However, even in those cases, we're executing the emergency evacuation checklist prior to leaving the cockpit (forgetting to shut down engines, for example could have very serious consequences when leaving the airplane in front of those big engines).
The best counsel I think I ever got in an airplane was this: in an emergency, sit on one's hands for a ten count, then do something. Take the time to think. Fast hands kill. I think that really applies to nearly every aspect of our flight, from the preflight planning to the preflight inspection, to the runup, takeoff procedures, all the way through to the shutdown and parking checklists.
Several years ago I was working a very active fire in a turbine Dromader. I ended up doing 18 flights to the fire that day. After each landing, one of the things we would do is lock the controls, as soon as we unlocked the tailwheel. This involved using a steel spring-loaded bar in the cockpit to physically lock the stick assembly. This was to prevent damage of the large control surfaces from wind or other aircraft, during ground maneuvering. Obviously this required removal of the control lock and a control check before every takeoff. Doing a control sweep was common, ingrained practice. I always had the checklists on a kneeboard, and used them religiously. All good and well, until one's been sweating like a pig under a hot greenhouse canopy all day, and is hungry, sore, tired, and there's no end in sight.
I got on the runway somewhere around load 12, locked the tailwheel, and pushed up the power. Normal procedure involved putting the stick forward as soon as the tail was ready to fly, sometimes using some flap to do it. As you've probably guessed, the stick wouldn't budge. I bumped the control lock free with my fist, and it snapped out of the way under spring tension. I continued the takeoff, silently whipping myself senseless with a mental cat-of-nine tails, and vowed to redouble my commitment to that checklist. Habits, flows, practices, and memorized procedures are great until they break down at a critical time during a hot, very uncomfortable workday, and things begin to get missed.
A little later in the day, I watched Bill, one of our other pilots, reject a takeoff. I queried him on the radio and he said "something didn't look right." I knew exactly what had happened: he got 3/4 of the way into his takeoff roll, tail in the air, before realizing that his controls were locked out. It could have been too late, if he'd waited any longer.
Not long after that I was in another state, at an airport primarily used by fire and ag airplanes. Someone who worked on the ramp there commented that the year previously, he'd seen a Dromader take off with the control lock engaged. He said the airplane made it a few hundred feet into the air before nosing over and diving into the ground, where it exploded. There before the grace go I, I thought; could have been me, could have been Bill. I'm fanatical about checklist usage, about flows, procedure, cockpit knowledge, and taking the time to check...yet I did it, too. What if I hadn't found it sooner? Was getting one more load to the fire quickly more important than taking extra time to check? Was I getting complacent, tired, hurried, or too comfortable to take the time necessary to save my life? Apparently so, and it could have been a colossal error. Thankfully, it was not.
I submit that single pilot or in a crew, if it's humanly possible to take the time, we should. The life we save might be our own.
A favorite question we always asked of jump students was how long they would have to open their reserve parachute if the main should fail. Nobody ever got the right answer, and it was very simple; the same answer applies in an airplane during an emergency. How long have we got to make it work out. The rest of our life.
Even if it's measured in minutes or seconds...
Regarding taking the time to get ready in an airplane, many moons ago I learned something from my boss, in Kansas. We were a small operation, operating several nearly identical Cessna AgTrucks. We referred to them as "the orange one," "the yellow one," and "the blue one." Otherwise, they were the same, inside and out.
Lain, the owners son, usually flew the blue airplane. One day he took my airplane, the orange one. This particular day, as his father and I looked on (we always kept one pilot on the ground as a lookout during takeoffs and landings, in the event of an emergency), Lain took longer than usual before departing. I asked his father why he thought it was taking so long.
"He's getting to know that airplane." Clarence said. I questioned this; after all, Lain had thousands of hours in AgTrucks, particularly in each of these airplanes.
"Ah." said Clarence. "Lain usually flies the blue one. Today he's in the orange one. They all have a different personality, they all fly a little different."
At my stage in life and career, they all flew about the same, to me. But not to Lain. We used most of the performance envelope of the airplanes during a typical spray flight, usually close to the ground, and taking the airplane right to the buffet in the turns at each end of the field, often at 75' of less, was very common. Accordingly, one needed to be absolutely sure where the airplane would pay off, and exactly what it would, and wouldn't do. Even with thousands of hours in the airplanes, even that airplane, Lain was taking the extra time to get thoroughly familiar and ready for the flight, from doing a quick blindfold check to feeling out the controls.
I didn't fully appreciate the wisdom of what Clarence told me at the time. Today, I do.
A few years ago, I flew a brand new Air Tractor AT-802. It flew like a dream. After a couple of weeks in that airplane, I was sent to fill-in on a very used and abused airplane, which had suffered a hard life. It flew very differently. Not unsafe, but it was like flying an entirely different kind of aircraft. I couldn't get comfortable in it. There were a few cockpit differences, and I spent the better part of two days sitting in the cockpit waiting for a dispatch, going over and over the cockpit with my eyes shut until I was blindfold-ready. I spent hours going over the radios, the nav, the drop system, the controls, the cockpit canopy release, the emergency handle, and so forth. I spent extra time outside the airplane, inspecting it, looking it over, examining, tugging, pulling, tweaking. I inspected every nut and bolt I could find, and every rivet I could see.
The former airplane was easy; get in and go, and I did. The latter airplane required much more attention. I was slower to get in the air, took wider turns on the drop, was more cautious about shoe-horning it into a tight space, and left myself wider outs, and flew it more conservatively.
The time it takes to get ready for a flight, or to conduct a flight (or to handle an emergency in flight) really depends on the airman, the aircraft, the operation, and many other factors that make it an individual experience. I tend to take more time than others. Perhaps I'm thorough, or perhaps just slow. My solution is to start early. Take the time I need. I always keep in mind that there is no flight which must be made. I've flown numerous types of operations, some very pressing. The old saying, "what's the rush, where's the fire?" never applied; I was often going to a fire, but always recognized that I didn't create the emergency, and wasn't about to let the flight become one. If more time was needed to preflight, load, takeoff, divert around terrain, skirt weather, run checklists, handle and onboard situation, communicate, etc, I took it, without any sense of pressure or guilt. No flight must be made; take the time necessary to do what must be done (or don't go).
Certainly moments will arise when the plan must change. Particularly since the recent UPS 6 crash in Dubai, we've been fairly keen on our fire drills when doing training. Take off, get a fire warning, go on oxygen and establish communiations, and do the memory items. Then get immediate vectors back to land; no briefing, no long identification or set up; get back as quickly as possible while addressing the problem as best able. In our scenarios, it's pressing, always resulting in an evacuation after landing (in the sim). That's one of those occasions when one isn't overly concerned about much of the standardized procedure we'd normally do. However, even in those cases, we're executing the emergency evacuation checklist prior to leaving the cockpit (forgetting to shut down engines, for example could have very serious consequences when leaving the airplane in front of those big engines).
The best counsel I think I ever got in an airplane was this: in an emergency, sit on one's hands for a ten count, then do something. Take the time to think. Fast hands kill. I think that really applies to nearly every aspect of our flight, from the preflight planning to the preflight inspection, to the runup, takeoff procedures, all the way through to the shutdown and parking checklists.
Several years ago I was working a very active fire in a turbine Dromader. I ended up doing 18 flights to the fire that day. After each landing, one of the things we would do is lock the controls, as soon as we unlocked the tailwheel. This involved using a steel spring-loaded bar in the cockpit to physically lock the stick assembly. This was to prevent damage of the large control surfaces from wind or other aircraft, during ground maneuvering. Obviously this required removal of the control lock and a control check before every takeoff. Doing a control sweep was common, ingrained practice. I always had the checklists on a kneeboard, and used them religiously. All good and well, until one's been sweating like a pig under a hot greenhouse canopy all day, and is hungry, sore, tired, and there's no end in sight.
I got on the runway somewhere around load 12, locked the tailwheel, and pushed up the power. Normal procedure involved putting the stick forward as soon as the tail was ready to fly, sometimes using some flap to do it. As you've probably guessed, the stick wouldn't budge. I bumped the control lock free with my fist, and it snapped out of the way under spring tension. I continued the takeoff, silently whipping myself senseless with a mental cat-of-nine tails, and vowed to redouble my commitment to that checklist. Habits, flows, practices, and memorized procedures are great until they break down at a critical time during a hot, very uncomfortable workday, and things begin to get missed.
A little later in the day, I watched Bill, one of our other pilots, reject a takeoff. I queried him on the radio and he said "something didn't look right." I knew exactly what had happened: he got 3/4 of the way into his takeoff roll, tail in the air, before realizing that his controls were locked out. It could have been too late, if he'd waited any longer.
Not long after that I was in another state, at an airport primarily used by fire and ag airplanes. Someone who worked on the ramp there commented that the year previously, he'd seen a Dromader take off with the control lock engaged. He said the airplane made it a few hundred feet into the air before nosing over and diving into the ground, where it exploded. There before the grace go I, I thought; could have been me, could have been Bill. I'm fanatical about checklist usage, about flows, procedure, cockpit knowledge, and taking the time to check...yet I did it, too. What if I hadn't found it sooner? Was getting one more load to the fire quickly more important than taking extra time to check? Was I getting complacent, tired, hurried, or too comfortable to take the time necessary to save my life? Apparently so, and it could have been a colossal error. Thankfully, it was not.
I submit that single pilot or in a crew, if it's humanly possible to take the time, we should. The life we save might be our own.
A favorite question we always asked of jump students was how long they would have to open their reserve parachute if the main should fail. Nobody ever got the right answer, and it was very simple; the same answer applies in an airplane during an emergency. How long have we got to make it work out. The rest of our life.
Even if it's measured in minutes or seconds...
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SNS3Guppy
In Europe we tend to refer to Mullti Crew as in an MCC course as opposed to Single Pilot but technically you are correct as a Crew is more than one
I take on fully what you are saying above and am in no way promoting being sloppy with checks.
As I said in my original post on this thread it was spurred by a complaint on another thread of a Pitts pilot pulling onto the runway and taking off in front of his aircraft back tracking onto remaining runway behind the numbers.
I can imagine the delays and frustration before that aircraft entered the runway that caused the Pitts pilot to line up on the numbers and go.
That got me thinking of a King Air Owner I fly with on occasion who is very methodical but slow with his checks often taking 20 minutes to complete.
I had been on an earlier flight to the south of France and he had flown the return with another co pilot.
They were running late as it was and delayed further by a Slot. His slow methodical checks meant that he missed that slot although being warned by ATC a number of times and was sent back to the parking lot with another Slot a further 1.5 hrs later.
As another poster here stated that in the military in the UK they are expected to learn the checks by memory and then have a checklist.
Obviously if you are renting an unfamiliar aircraft you will need to go through all the checks step by step not only so you dont miss something but also to familiarise yourself with the aircraft.
I can remember borrowing a TB20 which I had never flown although I had flown other TB20s I climbed into a cloudbase at 500 feet into IMC to be met by a strong chemical smell. The aircraft was fitted with TKS anti icing and the tiny matchstick switch was almost out of sight by my knee.
So for me its about doing everything you possibly can before the PAX arrive, knowing your aircraft so it fits like a glove! Knowing your checks but using the checklist if you are in a tight slot situation which is often the case at least here in Europe to confirm.
Obviously in an emergency other than the memory items it is straight to the emergency checklist lock stock and barrel
Pace
In Europe we tend to refer to Mullti Crew as in an MCC course as opposed to Single Pilot but technically you are correct as a Crew is more than one
I take on fully what you are saying above and am in no way promoting being sloppy with checks.
As I said in my original post on this thread it was spurred by a complaint on another thread of a Pitts pilot pulling onto the runway and taking off in front of his aircraft back tracking onto remaining runway behind the numbers.
I can imagine the delays and frustration before that aircraft entered the runway that caused the Pitts pilot to line up on the numbers and go.
That got me thinking of a King Air Owner I fly with on occasion who is very methodical but slow with his checks often taking 20 minutes to complete.
I had been on an earlier flight to the south of France and he had flown the return with another co pilot.
They were running late as it was and delayed further by a Slot. His slow methodical checks meant that he missed that slot although being warned by ATC a number of times and was sent back to the parking lot with another Slot a further 1.5 hrs later.
As another poster here stated that in the military in the UK they are expected to learn the checks by memory and then have a checklist.
Obviously if you are renting an unfamiliar aircraft you will need to go through all the checks step by step not only so you dont miss something but also to familiarise yourself with the aircraft.
I can remember borrowing a TB20 which I had never flown although I had flown other TB20s I climbed into a cloudbase at 500 feet into IMC to be met by a strong chemical smell. The aircraft was fitted with TKS anti icing and the tiny matchstick switch was almost out of sight by my knee.
So for me its about doing everything you possibly can before the PAX arrive, knowing your aircraft so it fits like a glove! Knowing your checks but using the checklist if you are in a tight slot situation which is often the case at least here in Europe to confirm.
Obviously in an emergency other than the memory items it is straight to the emergency checklist lock stock and barrel
Pace
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I take on fully what you are saying above and am in no way promoting being sloppy with checks.
I worked for a Learjet operator who insisted that we be taxiing as soon as the engines were started, and that's actually a very common thing; usually the engines were being started as the clients were settling into their seats. Clearances already obtained, all necessary checklists up to that point performed, coffee and ice ready, newspapers laid out on the seats, clients expected a turnkey operation: show up and go. Fast.
I flew Piaggios for a thousand hours or so, and the same thing there. Not at all uncommon to leave the right engine running when dropping or picking up a passenger, circumstances depending. I flew ambulance in King Air's, Lears, and Senecas, and we did the same thing. Much of the time I had engines turning as the crew arrived to get into the airplane and we were moving as the door was closing. There was never a delay with patients at the airplane; everything was always ready. When I got a dispatch, the airplane was already preflighted, and during my drive to the hangar I briefed and filed over the phone. My preflights were often long, as was my preparation, but I did it at my leisure before a flight was necessary, always at the start of a shift, and as the day or night progressed. Even in those states, however, I did the full checklists and did them out loud, as a single pilot (it kept me honest in not skipping things, and it put the record of having done so on the cockpit voice recorder).
A lot of our operations in Afghanistan have tight slot times. The runways get used a lot, and to make it work for everyone, there are slot times for ramp space and airspace. At some locations they're very hard-line about it, too. One can be half-way through with unloading the airplane and be confronted with a ramp manager who will tell you point blank, "you have 20 minutes; at the end of those 20 minutes you're departing whether the airplane is off-loaded or not." Arriving late can be extraordinarily bad; imagine flying all the way there, only to have to take off and fly home with half of the load still on the airplane. Not good; one must be on time and work within the constraints that are given. Weather, traffic, and mechanical delays must be factored in.
As another poster here stated that in the military in the UK they are expected to learn the checks by memory and then have a checklist.
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I understand what you're saying. Clients don't like to wait. I remember an influential banker we used to fly regularly who was known for climbing into the airplane and simply saying "go fast." That's what we did.
I worked for a Learjet operator who insisted that we be taxiing as soon as the engines were started, and that's actually a very common thing; usually the engines were being started as the clients were settling into their seats. Clearances already obtained, all necessary checklists up to that point performed, coffee and ice ready, newspapers laid out on the seats, clients expected a turnkey operation: show up and go. Fast.
I flew Piaggios for a thousand hours or so, and the same thing there. Not at all uncommon to leave the right engine running when dropping or picking up a passenger, circumstances depending. I flew ambulance in King Air's, Lears, and Senecas, and we did the same thing. Much of the time I had engines turning as the crew arrived to get into the airplane and we were moving as the door was closing. There was never a delay with patients at the airplane; everything was always ready. When I got a dispatch, the airplane was already preflighted, and during my drive to the hangar I briefed and filed over the phone. My preflights were often long, as was my preparation, but I did it at my leisure before a flight was necessary, always at the start of a shift, and as the day or night progressed. Even in those states, however, I did the full checklists and did them out loud, as a single pilot (it kept me honest in not skipping things, and it put the record of having done so on the cockpit voice recorder).
I worked for a Learjet operator who insisted that we be taxiing as soon as the engines were started, and that's actually a very common thing; usually the engines were being started as the clients were settling into their seats. Clearances already obtained, all necessary checklists up to that point performed, coffee and ice ready, newspapers laid out on the seats, clients expected a turnkey operation: show up and go. Fast.
I flew Piaggios for a thousand hours or so, and the same thing there. Not at all uncommon to leave the right engine running when dropping or picking up a passenger, circumstances depending. I flew ambulance in King Air's, Lears, and Senecas, and we did the same thing. Much of the time I had engines turning as the crew arrived to get into the airplane and we were moving as the door was closing. There was never a delay with patients at the airplane; everything was always ready. When I got a dispatch, the airplane was already preflighted, and during my drive to the hangar I briefed and filed over the phone. My preflights were often long, as was my preparation, but I did it at my leisure before a flight was necessary, always at the start of a shift, and as the day or night progressed. Even in those states, however, I did the full checklists and did them out loud, as a single pilot (it kept me honest in not skipping things, and it put the record of having done so on the cockpit voice recorder).
SNS3Guppy
The above that you have so well described and I am not so good at conveying is the reality for many of us. Guppy you should write a book
Pace
A big part of the problem is ridiculously long flight school generated checklists. They are often filled with extraneous fluff and have no logical organization. Recently I was asked to do a flight Instructor course at a local flying school. I said yes on the condition that they used my checklists. My checklist had exactly half the number of items compared to the existing lists and all the checks are based on a counter clock wise flow starting at the fuel selector on the floor and working around the instrument panel ending at the engine controls. The checks are "do lists" (ie read the item and then do it, move to the next item read then do etc) only for when the aircraft is stopped on the ground (prestart, pretakeoff, shut down) the rest are "check lists" (ie you do all the checks as a flow not looking at the checklist and then when able check the list).
Unfortunately operational efficency is often ignored in flight training. The goal should be to safely ready the aircraft for the intended flight in the minimum time.
Unfortunately operational efficency is often ignored in flight training. The goal should be to safely ready the aircraft for the intended flight in the minimum time.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 7th Jan 2011 at 16:51.
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Big Pistons
Very valid point we actually made our own checklist in the order we wanted and with the items we wanted.
Most private jets have abbreviated checklists which do shorten the time.
Yes customising to suit your own needs and flow patterns can also work in light GA pistons too.
Pace
Very valid point we actually made our own checklist in the order we wanted and with the items we wanted.
Most private jets have abbreviated checklists which do shorten the time.
Yes customising to suit your own needs and flow patterns can also work in light GA pistons too.
Pace
I recently saw a checklist for a flying schools' Piper Seneca. It was a do list for everything and had you complete 147 items from prestart to shutdown 
The line up check had 11 items, including this gem
"Wheel Brakes............... Release"
The line up check had 11 items, including this gem
"Wheel Brakes............... Release"
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I prefer to make my own checklists, too. So long as everything is covered, it's more than good enough.
Proper formatting and font can make a checklist much easier and much less distracting to use, which is a big plus, especially when operating single pilot.
Proper formatting and font can make a checklist much easier and much less distracting to use, which is a big plus, especially when operating single pilot.