End of medical.
I lost my Class 2 medical 15 years ago after a heart attack. This occured 3 weeks after my CAA medical, which included a resting ECG, thus proving that the medical is a poor way to predict these events. A full stress ECG on a treadmill would have done so, yet this is not a requirement even for Class 1 for renewal. How many problems would it uncover in the professional world, if it was required at renewal?
I now fly without passengers on a car drivers licence. I have regular monitoring of my cardiac health and medication and it could be argued that I am far more of a known risk than someone on a CAA medical who has an undisclosed condition. A small minority will always fly when unfit, no matter what level of medical they have, just as some people will fly too low or in unsuitable weather, but this should not be the criterion for judging the rest of us sensible folk. I believe that there has not been anyone killed on the ground by a medically incapacitated pilot in the UK since the Second World War.
I now fly without passengers on a car drivers licence. I have regular monitoring of my cardiac health and medication and it could be argued that I am far more of a known risk than someone on a CAA medical who has an undisclosed condition. A small minority will always fly when unfit, no matter what level of medical they have, just as some people will fly too low or in unsuitable weather, but this should not be the criterion for judging the rest of us sensible folk. I believe that there has not been anyone killed on the ground by a medically incapacitated pilot in the UK since the Second World War.
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A full stress ECG on a treadmill would have done so, yet this is not a requirement even for Class 1 for renewal.
It's a genuine question.
How many problems would it uncover in the professional world, if it was required at renewal?
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we still need to ensure that people's corrected vision is ok,
Why not put a very basic see/hear test like this in the LPC/BFR and only refer people to an AME if they fail this simple test? Heck, you could even calculate somebody's BMI and refer them to an AME if it's above a certain number. (Assuming that a too-high BMI is actually indicative of a potential cardiac problem - I don't know if that's true.)
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A UK Class 2 renewal costs about £150, but there is a variation.
I get my CAA Class 1 and my FAA Class 1 done at the same time for about that much, by Frank Voeten (I think that web page needs updating).
I get my CAA Class 1 and my FAA Class 1 done at the same time for about that much, by Frank Voeten (I think that web page needs updating).
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The airline pilots have pretty aggressive unions, whose reach goes way beyond representing pilots. They have had a big hand in sinking various efforts at a more accessible private IR, too.
What is it, exactly, that airline pilot unions do to hold down private pilots? Do you mean "instrument rating," when you say "private IR?" If so, what is it, pray tell, that unions are doing to prevent private pilots from obtaining an instrument rating.
I don't know of anything that the union to which I belong, or it's affiliates, or any other with which I am familiar, has done to affect the private pilot. In fact, I can't imagine any component of the union being in the least bit interested in the private pilot, save for any individual members (such as myself) who take a personal interest in instructing or flying privately.
Generally the union is far more concerned with grievances regarding pay, duty hours, and scheduling. There is nothing in the construction or makeup of the union that is remotely connected to, or could possibly concern itself with the training of a private pilot.
You're making this supposition based on your experience with airline pilot unions?
I believe that there has not been anyone killed on the ground by a medically incapacitated pilot in the UK since the Second World War.
With that logic then, if I fire a rifle down main street at noon and nobody gets hurt, then it's okay? Simply because nobody has been hurt in the UK, this is empirical evidence? The nobody-got-hurt-yet argument is a poor one for lowering the bar
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Originally Posted by SNS3Guppy
With that logic then, if I fire a rifle down main street at noon and nobody gets hurt, then it's okay? Simply because nobody has been hurt in the UK, this is empirical evidence? The nobody-got-hurt-yet argument is a poor one for lowering the bar.
Applying your flawed logic to driving, where there is evidence of people being hurt due to health failings in drivers, we would all be having class one medicals to drive.
The class 2 for ppl use is only of use to the AME getting the fee!
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Beany asked:
In France, microlight pilots have never needed a medical certificate.
Other French GA pilots always have.
There is no difference in the accident rates between these two categories. Source: http://www.p-u-l-m.com/monblog/rapportsecurite.pdf
Edited to say:
Having just reread this report for the first time after a couple of years, I remember now that it covers the medical aspect only in passing, but does however make in depth the very valid point that the extremely light regulation enjoyed by microlights in France has not resulted in a degradation of the accident rate (in fact they have a more favorable outcome than the rest of GA).
However, the initial point still holds - French microlight pilots don't kill themselves or others in droves just because they don't have medicals. If that weren't the case, the DGAC would have changed the rules pretty sharpish.
I's also be interested to know where you found your data to support your statement that medical regulation does not prevent accidents or make the sky a safer place.
Other French GA pilots always have.
There is no difference in the accident rates between these two categories. Source: http://www.p-u-l-m.com/monblog/rapportsecurite.pdf
Edited to say:
Having just reread this report for the first time after a couple of years, I remember now that it covers the medical aspect only in passing, but does however make in depth the very valid point that the extremely light regulation enjoyed by microlights in France has not resulted in a degradation of the accident rate (in fact they have a more favorable outcome than the rest of GA).
However, the initial point still holds - French microlight pilots don't kill themselves or others in droves just because they don't have medicals. If that weren't the case, the DGAC would have changed the rules pretty sharpish.
Last edited by No Foehn; 5th Jan 2011 at 18:03.
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BabyBear
I cannot see a comparison between a car driver with three passengers who becomes ill while driving and a pilot with 3 passengers who becomes ill while flying?
The Driver can hit the brakes and in a matter of a few seconds be stopped on the hard shoulder.
The pilot may be at 10000 feet in IMC 100 miles from an airport. For him to be taken ill in such a situation is far far more serious than the car driver.
The 3 passengers are totally dependant on the pilot especially in IMC.
As Guppy said there are pilots who are not fit to fly who would given half the chance.
I would also be interested on how the insurance companies would take to issuing insurance with NO medicals?
Having said that there are few professions or hobbies where a medical is required.
The pilot knows that at any time he could loose that medical and hence his livelyhood or ability to follow his passion.
A medical is just a snapshot at a given point in time a month later there may be a different picture.
That brings up a negative point with medicals and that is that many pilots are scared stiff of visiting their GPs between medicals and getting prompt diagnosis and treatment for fear of it all going on their records or leading to that loss of a medical and hence a livelyhood.
No wonder pilots go down the alternative medicine route which is itself dangerous.
In EASA land it will never happen! far more likely more tests and more intervention and more costs.
Pace
I cannot see a comparison between a car driver with three passengers who becomes ill while driving and a pilot with 3 passengers who becomes ill while flying?
The Driver can hit the brakes and in a matter of a few seconds be stopped on the hard shoulder.
The pilot may be at 10000 feet in IMC 100 miles from an airport. For him to be taken ill in such a situation is far far more serious than the car driver.
The 3 passengers are totally dependant on the pilot especially in IMC.
As Guppy said there are pilots who are not fit to fly who would given half the chance.
I would also be interested on how the insurance companies would take to issuing insurance with NO medicals?
Having said that there are few professions or hobbies where a medical is required.
The pilot knows that at any time he could loose that medical and hence his livelyhood or ability to follow his passion.
A medical is just a snapshot at a given point in time a month later there may be a different picture.
That brings up a negative point with medicals and that is that many pilots are scared stiff of visiting their GPs between medicals and getting prompt diagnosis and treatment for fear of it all going on their records or leading to that loss of a medical and hence a livelyhood.
No wonder pilots go down the alternative medicine route which is itself dangerous.
In EASA land it will never happen! far more likely more tests and more intervention and more costs.
Pace
To try and prevent someone getting hurt by folks firing rifles down the main street at noon we made guns illegal in the UK
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To try and prevent someone getting hurt by folks firing rifles down the main street at noon we made guns illegal in the UK. I live in hope the US will catch up one day.
Good luck trying to take my rifle away. That's why it's called a free country.
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Pace, I do not intend trying to compare the consequences of it all going wrong with a driver v a pilot. My point is there is no evidence the strict medicals save lives in aircraft accidents, on the other hand it would be easy to demonstrate there should be medicals for drivers by the same measure.
If there was a real desire to save lives from in GA then there are many more measures would stand a better chance of success than insisting on medicals, none of which it would be advisable to discuss here.
Skylark, agreed technically speaking, however I am sure you understood the point I was making. That said I do not accept it is easier than ever for criminals to get a hold of guns and certainly not as easy as it would be if we had such prehistoric laws as our friends across the pond.
SNS3Guppy, keep your hair on I have no intention of trying to take your gun away (I do not have a need for a gun). Unfortunately your immediate defensive stance and your belief that having the right to own one within law is the difference between being a "free" country and not further demonstrates your flawed thinking. Can I ask if you have any knowledge/experience of the CAA medicals and what they entail?
Having had my medical the week before Xmas I am somewhat raw, however I stand by the belief a class to for GA is excessive.
If there was a real desire to save lives from in GA then there are many more measures would stand a better chance of success than insisting on medicals, none of which it would be advisable to discuss here.
Skylark, agreed technically speaking, however I am sure you understood the point I was making. That said I do not accept it is easier than ever for criminals to get a hold of guns and certainly not as easy as it would be if we had such prehistoric laws as our friends across the pond.
SNS3Guppy, keep your hair on I have no intention of trying to take your gun away (I do not have a need for a gun). Unfortunately your immediate defensive stance and your belief that having the right to own one within law is the difference between being a "free" country and not further demonstrates your flawed thinking. Can I ask if you have any knowledge/experience of the CAA medicals and what they entail?
Having had my medical the week before Xmas I am somewhat raw, however I stand by the belief a class to for GA is excessive.
agreed technically speaking, however I am sure you understood the point I was making. That said I do not accept it is easier than ever for criminals to get a hold of guns and certainly not as easy as it would be if we had such prehistoric laws as our friends across the pond.
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That's true. Also most common criminals (those that are armed) use shotguns and you can nick half a dozen of those from just about any farmhouse. There is a vast number (millions is one figure mentioned) of nicked shotguns in circulation as a result.
You can own a rifle with a firearms certificate, but the controls (even on a high power air rifle, which needs an FAC too) are very strict at each 5-yearly renewal as to the usage you have for it.
Back to medicals, any total relaxation simply isn't going to happen over here in Europe.
You can own a rifle with a firearms certificate, but the controls (even on a high power air rifle, which needs an FAC too) are very strict at each 5-yearly renewal as to the usage you have for it.
Back to medicals, any total relaxation simply isn't going to happen over here in Europe.
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There is obviously the benefit of the cane in the form the medical for general health, as IO540 mentioned. People, including myself, try to shape up a bit and think about what we eat and exercise so we can keep flying. It does have that benefit, I suppose. But can this not be achieved any other way? If it can, then that would be a preferred route.
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In Canada you can hold a Recreational Pilot's Permit and enjoy the privileges on a 'Declaration' medical. You take the form to a TC designated doctor and sign it in front of him. My local guy charges half a Class 3 medical fee. As I am over 60 I also have to have an ECG.
This does at least give the doctor a chance to ask about your health and have a look at you to see if you can actually stand up and walk without bumping into things.
When we emigrated we had to have a medical. The doctor who did it was so decrepit we actually had to help him stand up and find the baby in wife's arms. Seemed rather deaf as well so using the stethescope was probably a bit pointless. We chose him because we didn't have to wait for the appointment!
This does at least give the doctor a chance to ask about your health and have a look at you to see if you can actually stand up and walk without bumping into things.
When we emigrated we had to have a medical. The doctor who did it was so decrepit we actually had to help him stand up and find the baby in wife's arms. Seemed rather deaf as well so using the stethescope was probably a bit pointless. We chose him because we didn't have to wait for the appointment!
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But can this not be achieved any other way?
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The nobody-got-hurt-yet argument is a poor one for lowering the bar.
Pace incidentally makes an excellent point about pilots who are afraid to visit their GP in case it adversely affects their medical status. These days virtually any prescription at all results in a temporary medical suspension until side effects have been evaluated and monitored and found acceptable. In my own case I was grounded for several weeks for taking a simple indigestion remedy and I certainly do think twice before visiting a doctor. This is not good for anyone.
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The UK is the only place I have lived where medical records are held centrally. In the other places I could visit any number of GPs or specialists of my choice and one would never know what the other had found or prescribed, unless I specifically asked for the information to be disclosed.