A runway hit by a snow flake. AAIB investigating now. BBC top story.
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What Heathrow should do is buy a load of snow clearing kit, should only cost a few million to buy enough.
Then the moaners can complain if its not needed for any snow for the next 30years that the maintenance is too much.
If it is needed they can complain that the maintenance is too much for a few days a year.
If its needed more than a few days a year they can complain that its not good enough for the job.
Or we can ignore the knee jerk reactions as just more complaining cos we Brits are still world class at complaining.
(I will be carefully reading all the complaints this post generates and considering all the points raised. I do over do the sarcasm occasionally)
Then the moaners can complain if its not needed for any snow for the next 30years that the maintenance is too much.
If it is needed they can complain that the maintenance is too much for a few days a year.
If its needed more than a few days a year they can complain that its not good enough for the job.
Or we can ignore the knee jerk reactions as just more complaining cos we Brits are still world class at complaining.
(I will be carefully reading all the complaints this post generates and considering all the points raised. I do over do the sarcasm occasionally)
This time, the UK is by far not alone in this. Since last Friday, things have come apart almost as bad as when the volcano saga hit, but this time, I am amazed at the extent.
Had the interesting experience to have a look at Frankfurt last Friday. They were trying to operate, but the terminal space just was FULL of folks queuing up for long cancelled flights. Therefore, there was no way people for later flights could reach check in and even if, their planes would be long gone before they reached the bag drop off. I hear they got the police in later tht day, to separate masses of waiting punters ready to declare civil war.
It was fascinating and scary to see society come apart in that situation. Mobiles would no longer work due to overload, freedom of movement was severely restricted due to the crowds and anyone trying to get past the crowd to an empty desk of a different airline had to fear for life and limb.
Yet, the snow cover there was some 10 cm. Heck, the only day I recall we ever closed the airport for most of the day here was 35 cm plus. Ok, once you get there, one runway end will simply be contaminated this way or the other, but 10 cm?
Really glad I don't work in airports which give in to just a hatchoum of Mrs Holle....
Had the interesting experience to have a look at Frankfurt last Friday. They were trying to operate, but the terminal space just was FULL of folks queuing up for long cancelled flights. Therefore, there was no way people for later flights could reach check in and even if, their planes would be long gone before they reached the bag drop off. I hear they got the police in later tht day, to separate masses of waiting punters ready to declare civil war.
It was fascinating and scary to see society come apart in that situation. Mobiles would no longer work due to overload, freedom of movement was severely restricted due to the crowds and anyone trying to get past the crowd to an empty desk of a different airline had to fear for life and limb.
Yet, the snow cover there was some 10 cm. Heck, the only day I recall we ever closed the airport for most of the day here was 35 cm plus. Ok, once you get there, one runway end will simply be contaminated this way or the other, but 10 cm?
Really glad I don't work in airports which give in to just a hatchoum of Mrs Holle....
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These forums really do make me laugh! For all of those who are up in their ivory towers, I suggest you climb down, pick up a shovel and help clear the runways and taxiways. Unless you are informed and well practiced at Runway/Taxiway/Stand clearance, I suggest you keep your opinions and b*tching to yourselves. Airfield Ops staff are working their nuts off at the moment. How about a well done for what they have done????
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I suppose in a typical British attitude, once a snow flake falls, all the schools shut and people *can't* get to work.
In other Euro countries, they just get on with it.
In other Euro countries, they just get on with it.
It is not enough to "just buy the equipment" required for snow clearance. People have to be trained to use it effectively while minimising disruption to traffic. This requires training and experience.
Between 1991 and 2004 I drove 55K miles a year in the UK and only experienced significant snow about four times and only once was it sufficient to stop me travelling. A lot of this motoring was up to Scotland and, even there, I only experienced snow once.
Unless we send staff to countries who experience a lot of snow, how can we expect them to cope efficiently when we do get snow?
Between 1991 and 2004 I drove 55K miles a year in the UK and only experienced significant snow about four times and only once was it sufficient to stop me travelling. A lot of this motoring was up to Scotland and, even there, I only experienced snow once.
Unless we send staff to countries who experience a lot of snow, how can we expect them to cope efficiently when we do get snow?
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I think the criticism here is about the lack of adequate investment into winter operations by the airport operators, rather than the staff slacking off (which I don't think is the case).
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QUOTE]For all of those who are up in their ivory towers, I suggest you climb down, pick up a shovel and help clear the runways and taxiways. Unless you are informed and well practiced at Runway/Taxiway/Stand clearance, I suggest you keep your opinions and b*tching to yourselves.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I've been keeping my comments to myself on this one so far. After all I suspect that comments from Canadians regarding snow are unwelcomed in the UK (particularly now).
In this case, my ivory tower is John Deere green, with a snow blower in front. As I have for the last 21 years, when there is too much snow on my runway to get airborne (and in my C 150, experience has shown that to be about 4 inches, depending upon type) I get out and clear it.
Its all a matter of how badly you want to go flying! In truth, buying the John Deere (my second snow clearing machine, as the other tractor is a bit light for some work) cost more than my plane did, and it gets more hours put on it too! It is very likely that my most common desitination airport (CYQA) gets more passes by the snow clearing equipment on any given winter day, than the total number of aircraft movements for that day. Its just the way it is....
All the passengers sleeping on floors at LGW and LHR would probably chip in $50 toward snow clearing costs, if such an exercise were to be organized - its all a matter of how badly you want to go flying....
Yeah, I've been keeping my comments to myself on this one so far. After all I suspect that comments from Canadians regarding snow are unwelcomed in the UK (particularly now).
In this case, my ivory tower is John Deere green, with a snow blower in front. As I have for the last 21 years, when there is too much snow on my runway to get airborne (and in my C 150, experience has shown that to be about 4 inches, depending upon type) I get out and clear it.
Its all a matter of how badly you want to go flying! In truth, buying the John Deere (my second snow clearing machine, as the other tractor is a bit light for some work) cost more than my plane did, and it gets more hours put on it too! It is very likely that my most common desitination airport (CYQA) gets more passes by the snow clearing equipment on any given winter day, than the total number of aircraft movements for that day. Its just the way it is....
All the passengers sleeping on floors at LGW and LHR would probably chip in $50 toward snow clearing costs, if such an exercise were to be organized - its all a matter of how badly you want to go flying....
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In other Euro countries, they just get on with it.
Schiphol is struggling with the snow just as badly as Heathrow, CDG or Frankfurt. And of course, once Schiphol is cleared, the destination airport is closed and vice versa. Leading to a cumulative effect.
I was flipping channels and saw a BAA spokesman on the BBC giving a very reasoned statement. Snow equipment acquisition, maintenance, training and such costs an arm and a leg and cannot be acquired overnight. It's an investment and that money cannot be invested elsewhere. Of course, if you live in a climate that delivers multiple feet of snow every year, the investment is a no-brainer so I'm not surprised that Canada, Scandinavia and similar places are better prepared than mid-Europe where, let's face it, this amount of snow is a very rare event - at least up to last year.
But I now see climatologists abandoning their "global warming" idea in favour of a little Ice age, caused, it seems, by the lack of sunspots in the last few years. If that is indeed the case then a lot of airports are going to have to re-do their investment plans for the next few years.
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Shopping centre
Why should we expect any more in the way of snow clearing at LHR & LGW after all it's not the sort of thing that the management of a shopping centre has to deal with. The kit to clear the snow costs a lot of money and usualy contributes nothing to profit.
Ho Ho Ho ! this year the lack of snow clearance has stopped the flow of those seeking a retail oppertunity so the shopping centre management may will have to buy that runway snow clearing equipment just to get the customers (sorry passengers) flowing through the door!
Ho Ho Ho ! this year the lack of snow clearance has stopped the flow of those seeking a retail oppertunity so the shopping centre management may will have to buy that runway snow clearing equipment just to get the customers (sorry passengers) flowing through the door!
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PilotDAR should be aware that there are many different kinds of snow dry powder is easy to deal with you just get a snow blower and shift it.
In the UK and other nearby parts of Europe we get wet sticky snow that has to be shovelled, moreover we get partial thaws followed by refreeze that leave wet sticky snow sitting on a layer of solid ice. That is extremely difficult to deal with and is why most major European hubs like Heathrow, Schipol, Brussels and Frankfurt are having a tough time just now.
In the past it has happened pretty rarely and been generally not that widespread:
1942 1947 1963 and 1981 are the last major occurrences before the last couple of years.
In the UK and other nearby parts of Europe we get wet sticky snow that has to be shovelled, moreover we get partial thaws followed by refreeze that leave wet sticky snow sitting on a layer of solid ice. That is extremely difficult to deal with and is why most major European hubs like Heathrow, Schipol, Brussels and Frankfurt are having a tough time just now.
In the past it has happened pretty rarely and been generally not that widespread:
1942 1947 1963 and 1981 are the last major occurrences before the last couple of years.
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Yeah, Pilot DAR also has to clear the wet sticky snow too, but thankfully not too often. Blowing that stuff does not work well, but plowing with a really powerful plow generally works well. I doubt that there is much to be known about how to deal with snow, that is known here and not all over Europe. It is simply the will to do it, and buy the equipment.
Global warming, and bizaare weather are now a reality. It will be up to our collective societies to figure out how we want to deal with it. In a world where aircraft operations are less tolerant of poor runway conditions than before, either we park the planes, make them (and the pilots) more contaminated runway tolerant, or deal with the snow with increased preparedness and budgets
Global warming, and bizaare weather are now a reality. It will be up to our collective societies to figure out how we want to deal with it. In a world where aircraft operations are less tolerant of poor runway conditions than before, either we park the planes, make them (and the pilots) more contaminated runway tolerant, or deal with the snow with increased preparedness and budgets
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These forums really do make me laugh! For all of those who are up in their ivory towers, I suggest you climb down, pick up a shovel and help clear the runways and taxiways. Unless you are informed and well practiced at Runway/Taxiway/Stand clearance, I suggest you keep your opinions and b*tching to yourselves. Airfield Ops staff are working their nuts off at the moment. How about a well done for what they have done????
We may not be able to clear snow but we certainly get the gold medal for sitting on our collective fat arse and bitching. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and the problem with today's media giving out "information" is that all of a sudden everyone is an expert. The simple fact is that our lazy way of life has led us to expect everything to be available to us "cheap and now" and when it isn't we see behaviour that I woudn't stand for in a toddler. There is a general collective throwing of toys out of collective prams and a search for some poor sod to blame.
Yes I feel sorry for the thousands of people stranded but grow-up people - Sh1t happens.
As a consequence of our desire to have everything now and free companies pare investment to the bone and on the advice of highly paid management consultants, reduce inventories (since inventories are cash) to a "Just in Time" process. This process means that supermarkets only have about 3 days of supply, filling stations about a week under normal circumstances. and same applies probably to airport terminals for everything from bottled water to bog roll. So when something out of the ordinary happens, the wheels come off our cosy way of life in a big way. Trucks can't deliver because roads can't be gritted because of the weight of traffic on our over crowded infrastructure making "necessary journeys", trains can't run because staff are not available, points freeze; folks can't fly because crews and a/c are in the wrong place, runways take time to clear, kit breaks down because it's not used regularly, etc.
So, spare a thought for those folks who are really trying to do the best they can on what will always in this world be limited resources. The poor sods can't win. If the councils invest in gritters and the weather doesn't arrive The Times will print an "expose" about how "your money" is being squandered on useless snow clearing equipment when everyone knows our climate is getting warmer. If they don't and we see the sort of conditions we have witnessed recently then they still get hammered.
Oh, and one last thing, this isn't just an English thing. This is happening all over Europe at the moment and heavy storms in the US Mid-West last month caused widespread disruption.
Rant Over - for now
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Helsinki airport had 188cm (6ft) of snow last winter but the last time it was forced to close because of the weather was in 2003
BBC News - How Helsinki airport deals with snow and ice
At Heathrow we have 2 runways, while one is closed due to the 1.8cm snow, the other is also closed. The last time it stayed open for longer than 30 mins after a small flurry of snow was 2003
BBC News - How Helsinki airport deals with snow and ice
At Heathrow we have 2 runways, while one is closed due to the 1.8cm snow, the other is also closed. The last time it stayed open for longer than 30 mins after a small flurry of snow was 2003
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As a consequence of our desire to have everything now and free companies pare investment to the bone and on the advice of highly paid management consultants, reduce inventories (since inventories are cash) to a "Just in Time" process.
A while ago I read about some airline not bothering to equip to Cat3C because their accountants worked out that they will lose on average just 3 days per year (due to fog) and that was OK.
I have lived in the UK since 1969 and have seen this much snow (in Sussex) loads of times.
BTW "JIT" doesn't really exist; it is a fancy name for a big company screwing its (smaller) suppliers into keeping stock on the shelf for free, and delivering it is bits when specified. So the customer gets stuff "JIT" while the small supplier is working its bollox off behind the scenes to make it look good - because all but the most trivial production from components or raw materials cannot be done JIT because even with the best management in your company some supplier further up the food chain will drop you in the poo much too often
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I am currently out operating and it is simply not true that 'This is happening all over Europe at the moment'. The fact that airports in the U.K. cannot deal with the snow is not acceptable. Others countries can, and do, year after year, season after season. The fact that we witnessed the same shambles last winter makes this season's debacle even more deplorable.
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Don't panic, don't panic!
Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, it's all going to melt anyway.
The situation in Helsinki doesn't exactly coincide with our maritime climate, no wonder they have to keep shoveling the stuff.
Seems the real problem was not communicating with the traveling public.
The forecasts up to now have been spot on. And timely.
The situation in Helsinki doesn't exactly coincide with our maritime climate, no wonder they have to keep shoveling the stuff.
Seems the real problem was not communicating with the traveling public.
The forecasts up to now have been spot on. And timely.
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"In Kiev they have this antique jet strapped onto the back of a lorry. It's angled side- and downwards"
They had the same thing at Santa-pod to dry the track looked like an old Frank Whittle engine, sounded good and did the job too.
They had the same thing at Santa-pod to dry the track looked like an old Frank Whittle engine, sounded good and did the job too.
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So I drove up to Sweden over the last 24 hrs and have a first hand report (as I couldn't fly).
Obviously snow everywhere, mayhem and chaos in England. Because I live close to Folkestone meant I could get the on the back roads to the Eurotunnel car train and avoid the worst of it. None of the roads we're salted or plowed. Eurotunnel delays, but not too bad.
Come to the French side where there's been exactly the same snow storm. Roads clear, salting vehicles everywhere. Traffic flowing. Not a speck of snow on any of the motorways. This continued uninterrupted through Belgium, Holland, Germany, Denmark and Sweden. I could see all the approaches into Hamburg and Kastrup on my way, and they worked fine.
So I stand by my observation from this year and last year: it's a British thing. And BAA - didn't you buy plows after last years debacle at Heathrow? Or did they think that snow in the UK was a freak accident? How much money does it cost to have all the airports in the UK closed? And weeks of backed up traffic? The badwill and revenue lost from people who will never connect through London during the winter again?
Surely a couple of snow plows must be cheaper than that...
Obviously snow everywhere, mayhem and chaos in England. Because I live close to Folkestone meant I could get the on the back roads to the Eurotunnel car train and avoid the worst of it. None of the roads we're salted or plowed. Eurotunnel delays, but not too bad.
Come to the French side where there's been exactly the same snow storm. Roads clear, salting vehicles everywhere. Traffic flowing. Not a speck of snow on any of the motorways. This continued uninterrupted through Belgium, Holland, Germany, Denmark and Sweden. I could see all the approaches into Hamburg and Kastrup on my way, and they worked fine.
So I stand by my observation from this year and last year: it's a British thing. And BAA - didn't you buy plows after last years debacle at Heathrow? Or did they think that snow in the UK was a freak accident? How much money does it cost to have all the airports in the UK closed? And weeks of backed up traffic? The badwill and revenue lost from people who will never connect through London during the winter again?
Surely a couple of snow plows must be cheaper than that...
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It's a British thing?
Exactly who owns BAA (British Airports Authority) ??? Could it be that there is a sinister plot afoot?
And as far as the highways are concerned, they seem to be moving okay; its my driveway I'm worried about!
And as far as the highways are concerned, they seem to be moving okay; its my driveway I'm worried about!