Finish PPL in own aircraft (complex?)
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
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From: U.K.
Originally Posted by mrmum
SAS, it was back in 2001, nearly ten years ago, were you instructing back then? I was, but he didn't ask me either, I guess we can feel left out together!
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 134
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From: UK
Thanks everyone, for so much info. I've been quietly soaking it all up.
I don't want to spend an arm and a leg on my first aeroplane, and would see the first one as a stepping stone (for maybe a year or two) towards the Commander or similar.
SAS, maybe you would PM me your details? Regardless of the type of aircraft I go for, you sound like you have a pretty pragmatic and sensible approach to things!
To be honest, I'm starting to think about winding everything right back and buying something for £20K - £30K, like an old 172 or similar performance Piper (I prefer the low wing), and getting some hours under my belt, then worry about clever wheels and props for my "proper" aeroplane - something to look forward to!
I have considerd just continuing to hire, I've also thought long and hard about an aircraft share - which on the face of it, seems perfect. But I would be frustrated if the aircraft wasn't available, I'd also like to take it away for a few days, a few times a year, which would be inconvenient for everyone else, and finally.. I just want my own aeroplane (regardless of how comparitively humble)! That last one being a reason for purchase, which I suspect is pretty common amongst light aircraft owners!
But the complex side can wait if it'll cause me all sorts of agro.
If I went for a cheap Piper (I quite fancy getting on dirt cheap with very few hours left on the engine, and getting a factory overhauled engine from Lycoming, so I know I'm not inheriting an engine with a history) and wanted to move it on in the next year or two, am I likely to be able to get out of it relative unscathed, and within a sensible timescale?
Thanks again to everyone.
I don't want to spend an arm and a leg on my first aeroplane, and would see the first one as a stepping stone (for maybe a year or two) towards the Commander or similar.
SAS, maybe you would PM me your details? Regardless of the type of aircraft I go for, you sound like you have a pretty pragmatic and sensible approach to things!
To be honest, I'm starting to think about winding everything right back and buying something for £20K - £30K, like an old 172 or similar performance Piper (I prefer the low wing), and getting some hours under my belt, then worry about clever wheels and props for my "proper" aeroplane - something to look forward to!
I have considerd just continuing to hire, I've also thought long and hard about an aircraft share - which on the face of it, seems perfect. But I would be frustrated if the aircraft wasn't available, I'd also like to take it away for a few days, a few times a year, which would be inconvenient for everyone else, and finally.. I just want my own aeroplane (regardless of how comparitively humble)! That last one being a reason for purchase, which I suspect is pretty common amongst light aircraft owners!
But the complex side can wait if it'll cause me all sorts of agro.
If I went for a cheap Piper (I quite fancy getting on dirt cheap with very few hours left on the engine, and getting a factory overhauled engine from Lycoming, so I know I'm not inheriting an engine with a history) and wanted to move it on in the next year or two, am I likely to be able to get out of it relative unscathed, and within a sensible timescale?
Thanks again to everyone.
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: Up North
I wonder what the insurance for a Seneca for a pre-PPL solo flight would have been
Joined: May 2001
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From: 75N 16E
I'm starting to think about winding everything right back and buying something for £20K - £30K,
30k would buy you something really nice....I know of a beauty for sale....
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
There are several threads which keep coming through when one looks at other owner-pilots who seem happy with their lot.
They tend to
- be easily able to afford their plane and their flying
- understand the plane technically
- be able to arrange and manage the maintenance
- have somewhere to park it / hangar it, without hassle
- live not too far away from the airfield
- be happy with it meeting at least 75% of their mission profile, but 100% is not essential
So... if you have £10 and you buy a plane for £9.90, you have just 10p left for "suprises"
That's may be OK if you bought a new plane, well built (not like some of these plastic camping caravans built in the place where I come from 
) and with a nice warranty, but it won't be OK with anything older.
If changing the gears in a manual-box car is a technical challenge for you, don't buy a TBM850 and/or try to do an IR - no matter how much money you have. I guarantee perpetual misery (even if you finally manage to do it), and I have seen very rich pilots who got that far and then just gave up flying totally.
If these things are borne in mind, there is no problem with somebody (rich) buying a Rockwell Commander, a TB20, a Cessna 400 (make sure the plastic is stuck on the wings properly) and doing the PPL in it, with a technically competent instructor (finding one of those is another story) and totally skipping the whole crap-spamcan scene. If I was going to get into helis, I would buy a Gazelle and rent an ex mil instructor to teach me how to fly it, and skip the Robinson sewing machine stage altogether.
Re the mission capability, it is quite hard to get beyond the ~ 80% point unless you are prepared to drill a hole straight through almost any frontal weather, in icing conditions. There are planes that will do that, not necessarily pricey (if you buy an old heap) but you need to ask yourself whether you actually want to be doing that.
They tend to
- be easily able to afford their plane and their flying
- understand the plane technically
- be able to arrange and manage the maintenance
- have somewhere to park it / hangar it, without hassle
- live not too far away from the airfield
- be happy with it meeting at least 75% of their mission profile, but 100% is not essential
So... if you have £10 and you buy a plane for £9.90, you have just 10p left for "suprises"
That's may be OK if you bought a new plane, well built (not like some of these plastic camping caravans built in the place where I come from ) and with a nice warranty, but it won't be OK with anything older.If changing the gears in a manual-box car is a technical challenge for you, don't buy a TBM850 and/or try to do an IR - no matter how much money you have. I guarantee perpetual misery (even if you finally manage to do it), and I have seen very rich pilots who got that far and then just gave up flying totally.
If these things are borne in mind, there is no problem with somebody (rich) buying a Rockwell Commander, a TB20, a Cessna 400 (make sure the plastic is stuck on the wings properly) and doing the PPL in it, with a technically competent instructor (finding one of those is another story) and totally skipping the whole crap-spamcan scene. If I was going to get into helis, I would buy a Gazelle and rent an ex mil instructor to teach me how to fly it, and skip the Robinson sewing machine stage altogether.
Re the mission capability, it is quite hard to get beyond the ~ 80% point unless you are prepared to drill a hole straight through almost any frontal weather, in icing conditions. There are planes that will do that, not necessarily pricey (if you buy an old heap) but you need to ask yourself whether you actually want to be doing that.
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: U.K.
Some good advice here about buying an aircraft.
You've got to treat them a bit like a well maintained, expensive toy, but not one that is going to stretch you to breaking point financially.
Nothing sucks the fun out of flying faster than worrying whether you can really afford it.
The general (if not very nice rule) is to try and buy an aircraft that someone else has spent a fortune on. Buying a wreck and then restoring it is asking for trouble! You just have to make sure that you aren't buying a polished !!!! though!
You've got to treat them a bit like a well maintained, expensive toy, but not one that is going to stretch you to breaking point financially.
Nothing sucks the fun out of flying faster than worrying whether you can really afford it.
The general (if not very nice rule) is to try and buy an aircraft that someone else has spent a fortune on. Buying a wreck and then restoring it is asking for trouble! You just have to make sure that you aren't buying a polished !!!! though!
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Buying a wreck and then restoring it is asking for trouble!
I don't think it is worth doing unless the finished job is going to be worth over £100k - unless you can do it all yourself (and don't value your time). For fun, I've looked at some of the ~£35k TB20s and did some figures on what it would cost to bring it to the level of a late-model one (worth about £140k) and the answer was at least £100k
There are some real shysters about. A friend of mine was looking at a PA28-181 and it turned out it had been sitting somewhere nearly 10 years. It was not worth scrap. But some mug will buy it allright for the asking price of £45k.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
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From: U.K.
How many PPL's could honestly say that they have the knowledge to deal with a shonky aircraft in need of restoration? Not many I'd wager!
If you happen to have a big hangar and are a LAME, then that's one thing, if you are like 99.99% of PPL holders, then you're better off buying something decent in the first place!
As for shysters in the GA world... IO I'm shocked! I thought that this was part of the industry where everyone was sweetness and light and honesty was guaranteed...
If you happen to have a big hangar and are a LAME, then that's one thing, if you are like 99.99% of PPL holders, then you're better off buying something decent in the first place!
As for shysters in the GA world... IO I'm shocked! I thought that this was part of the industry where everyone was sweetness and light and honesty was guaranteed...
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2010
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From: UK
This is invaluable advice, and I'm delighted I posted. Thank you.
Unfortunately, I'm now more confused than before I started! But only because some of the blindfold has been lifted!
Experience tells me that, this usually means there are many more blindfolds I'm still not aware of!!
Unfortunately, I'm now more confused than before I started! But only because some of the blindfold has been lifted!
Experience tells me that, this usually means there are many more blindfolds I'm still not aware of!!
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: West Midlands
Upside Ok i will get straight to the point . . DONT DO IT IN A COMPLEX you will only land up in one of those publications that the CAA send to flying clubs explaining how some inexperienced pilot stuffs his pride and joy into ground . . . if he is lucky he might get out of it . . if hes not . . he wont. Im you fight sorry you have a load of blokes telling you to buy a Cirrus . . I think for insurance purposes you need 100 hours P1 followed by 6 hours with an instructor learning how to land the bloody thing because of its slippery wing . . before an insurance company will let you solo it. Im not sure how this fits in with a training program or indeed how it fits in with your budget as there are not many newly qualified pilot can afford a 130k aircraft !. Look there many dreamers on this type of forum . . some may even have a pilots licence ! ! !. I passed with very high results and thought i knew everything . . .purchased my own TB9 ,. . and off i went. There followed mag failures, panel melt downs, lowering cloud bases, nasty unexpected cross winds, reducing vis, sunday pilots who spend hours describing their aircraft while you are on short finals without landing clearence. I even had a lost microlite pilot attempting to land on a desinated taxiway that i was holding on. So look there is a reason most clubs insist on 100 hours before considering you for complex training and no it is not just remembering to put the gear down. Most complex aircraft have far more complicated avionics, which for a green pilot can get you well out of your depth . . real quick. One other thing complex aircraft have is the ability to lift weight. So naturally you will be tempted to bring along a lot more people on your trips. People, avionics, navigation, aircraft management will soon add up to a very high work load for a novice pilot. You only have to make one minor mistake . . . and you will . . to scare the of willies out of your passengers. Please . . .get your licence, fly a crappy rental for awhile . . . you will have fun because you can cope. As for me . . i got some hours, got scared, had some real fun and moved up to a complex, twin, night and IMC. bought a Cessna 310 twin and have flown so called complex Arrows, TB20 's, Dutchess's , Cessna310 and 320's all over europe and now fly the wonderful 6 seater Piper Lance and Im still here 2500 PPL hours later and Im still learning.
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From: EuroGA.org
A charitable interpretation of the above is to dig out a half decent instructor.
If you can do that, you are 75% of the way there.
Your attitude (to develop a good understanding of the systems, etc) will be the other 25%.
But I would never advise a pilot with a half decent brain to fly 1000000 hours in a C150 before moving to something that's actually usable for going somewhere.
If you can do that, you are 75% of the way there.
Your attitude (to develop a good understanding of the systems, etc) will be the other 25%.
But I would never advise a pilot with a half decent brain to fly 1000000 hours in a C150 before moving to something that's actually usable for going somewhere.
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: U.K.
Nor would I. There is some benefit in using something simple for the initial parts of the course, simply on a basis of cost, but if that isn't an issue, then as long as you get a decent instructor, then things should be fine.
A "complex" single really isn't all that complex. You just have to learn how to use it that's all. As long as you aren't denser than my mother's idea of Christmas cake, then it can be done. I was bouncing around on my own in a complex single with little more than a PPL and at least if you are getting trained on the thing from day one, then you'll have a minimum of 45 hours with an FI to get used to it, rather than scraping through a PPL in something basic and then jumping into something complex for a 5 hr "conversion" course that doesn't equip you properly at all.
With good training and some effort it's amazing what can be achieved. Just because it's the norm for people to have rubbish training in an exam factory in something with less complexity than the average hairdryer, doesn;t mean that's the ideal way to go about things.
Wobbly props, retractable gear or even a taildragger are hardly beyond the realms of possibility for most people. We're not talking about throwing someone with 10 hours into a Cessna 421 and make them then operate in heavy icing & IMC conditions.
A "complex" single really isn't all that complex. You just have to learn how to use it that's all. As long as you aren't denser than my mother's idea of Christmas cake, then it can be done. I was bouncing around on my own in a complex single with little more than a PPL and at least if you are getting trained on the thing from day one, then you'll have a minimum of 45 hours with an FI to get used to it, rather than scraping through a PPL in something basic and then jumping into something complex for a 5 hr "conversion" course that doesn't equip you properly at all.
With good training and some effort it's amazing what can be achieved. Just because it's the norm for people to have rubbish training in an exam factory in something with less complexity than the average hairdryer, doesn;t mean that's the ideal way to go about things.
Wobbly props, retractable gear or even a taildragger are hardly beyond the realms of possibility for most people. We're not talking about throwing someone with 10 hours into a Cessna 421 and make them then operate in heavy icing & IMC conditions.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
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From: U.K.
I know, you'd think that flying a taildragger was akin to base jumping without a parachute if you listened to some people!
Unfortunately I think this is a testament to training on aircraft that are too easy to fly and instrcutors who are only just competent to fly themselves, let alone teach people properly...*
*Hark at me, I'm turing into a right old miserable git!
Unfortunately I think this is a testament to training on aircraft that are too easy to fly and instrcutors who are only just competent to fly themselves, let alone teach people properly...*
*Hark at me, I'm turing into a right old miserable git!
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
As I've said before, the "complex" definition is mostly a historical artefact and barely relates to complexity in any real sense.
Modern avionics are a lot more difficult to grasp than a CS prop etc. - and far fewer instructors (in the UK, for sure) understand avionics. When I got my TB20 I never found an instructor who even know how to use an HSI. I worked it all out myself, zooming around at 5000ft over Kent
It is however true that anybody not totally dense can learn to fly a C152 on nice days, but IMHO only a fairly small % of people can fully grasp a complex panel and use it fully for IFR. I know my plane pretty well but there are still a few little nooks and crannies in the GPS which I have never used (and I avoid them in the air; they are not operationally relevant).
Modern avionics are a lot more difficult to grasp than a CS prop etc. - and far fewer instructors (in the UK, for sure) understand avionics. When I got my TB20 I never found an instructor who even know how to use an HSI. I worked it all out myself, zooming around at 5000ft over Kent
It is however true that anybody not totally dense can learn to fly a C152 on nice days, but IMHO only a fairly small % of people can fully grasp a complex panel and use it fully for IFR. I know my plane pretty well but there are still a few little nooks and crannies in the GPS which I have never used (and I avoid them in the air; they are not operationally relevant).
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: U.K.
I think that is more of a testament to the over complexity of some modern avionics than necessarily the fault of the FI community. With so many various systems out there, it's actually very difficult to become and to remain an expert on something as daftly complex as something like a G1000.
The little gotcha's on that such as the range rings that change with no real annuciation aren't obvious and to me defy logic.
I'm far more comfortable with FMS's in Boeings, they might have more buttons, but they are eminently easier to use.
As for an FI not knowing how to use an HSI, you must have met FI's who were trained in the 20's and never flown anything more modern than that!
The little gotcha's on that such as the range rings that change with no real annuciation aren't obvious and to me defy logic.
I'm far more comfortable with FMS's in Boeings, they might have more buttons, but they are eminently easier to use.
As for an FI not knowing how to use an HSI, you must have met FI's who were trained in the 20's and never flown anything more modern than that!
