Flying into Italy
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Maybe it is Brits (non-Schengen) who keep having all the "fun" in Italy?
They need to get "Customs PNR" etc and of course PNR=PPR because you have no way of knowing if the PNR was received unless you get a confirmation.
I was refused a landing clearance (from a short final) at Padova because they said they didn't get the PNR (I sent them several faxes the previous day because they didn't answer the phone) so - in Italy, for sure - this needs to be treated seriously.
In France, I have had occassions where I could not make fax/phone/email contact to verify "Customs PNR" and after finally getting a local contact to do it, the answer was along the lines "yes, of course, we have your fax, no problem...". But that's France - a very different country.
It's quite possible that Schengen pilots don't have any PNR issues (as those are mostly Customs related) - apart from avgas. Local (Italian) flyers will know all the tricks anyway.
They need to get "Customs PNR" etc and of course PNR=PPR because you have no way of knowing if the PNR was received unless you get a confirmation.
I was refused a landing clearance (from a short final) at Padova because they said they didn't get the PNR (I sent them several faxes the previous day because they didn't answer the phone) so - in Italy, for sure - this needs to be treated seriously.
In France, I have had occassions where I could not make fax/phone/email contact to verify "Customs PNR" and after finally getting a local contact to do it, the answer was along the lines "yes, of course, we have your fax, no problem...". But that's France - a very different country.
It's quite possible that Schengen pilots don't have any PNR issues (as those are mostly Customs related) - apart from avgas. Local (Italian) flyers will know all the tricks anyway.
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IO540,
two things, Padova is not a controlled airfield and thus IMHO you should have landed and sorted out the PNR vs PPR snafu safely on the ground. If you were coming in from abroad like you imply, then there was an ATC flight plan, and to me that is yet another indication of the fact that you were going into LIPU.
Also, there are no customs involved in an intra-EU flight like UK to Italy. There is only passport check since the UK are not part of the Schengen agreement, and any policeman or Carabiniere can do that check. A simple phone call would have made the trick. If you know the trick, that is...
On the other hand, often times airports have a PPR for GA flights, citing lack of parking space as an excuse. Truth is, they don't want any GA planes cause they don't bring in much revenue. That is why in most airports you can't even find 100LL avgas, and sometimes if it's there, it cannot be sold to visitors as it's only available to planes belonging to the Aeroclub.
This is the exact reason why so many GA planes have migrated to aviosuperfici out in the countryside.
GA has been very successfully mobbed in Italy, no doubts about that. Very unfortunate that this happened in a country that used to be at the top of the aviation world between the two wars...
Ciao, Luca
P.S. Not sure about the alice.it warning you mention. Alice is an ISP in Italy but I don't see the link with the PPRuNe forum...
two things, Padova is not a controlled airfield and thus IMHO you should have landed and sorted out the PNR vs PPR snafu safely on the ground. If you were coming in from abroad like you imply, then there was an ATC flight plan, and to me that is yet another indication of the fact that you were going into LIPU.
Also, there are no customs involved in an intra-EU flight like UK to Italy. There is only passport check since the UK are not part of the Schengen agreement, and any policeman or Carabiniere can do that check. A simple phone call would have made the trick. If you know the trick, that is...
On the other hand, often times airports have a PPR for GA flights, citing lack of parking space as an excuse. Truth is, they don't want any GA planes cause they don't bring in much revenue. That is why in most airports you can't even find 100LL avgas, and sometimes if it's there, it cannot be sold to visitors as it's only available to planes belonging to the Aeroclub.
This is the exact reason why so many GA planes have migrated to aviosuperfici out in the countryside.
GA has been very successfully mobbed in Italy, no doubts about that. Very unfortunate that this happened in a country that used to be at the top of the aviation world between the two wars...
Ciao, Luca
P.S. Not sure about the alice.it warning you mention. Alice is an ISP in Italy but I don't see the link with the PPRuNe forum...
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Interesting input.
I did wonder, and if it happened again I would probably declare a "low oil pressure" mayday and land. In this case we diverted to Treviso, whose ATC said they have avgas, only to find aeroclub-only avgas there. Eventually we filled up across the Alps in Germany.
Sure they knew it, and I know they knew it in good time, but somebody either messed up or they wanted to teach us a lesson. We flew in from Croatia. Unfortunately, flight plans are almost universally disregarded for PNR/PPR purposes. The only airports I have come across where flight plans are thus used are some H24 ones (Prague e.g.) where the handler organises things according to the incoming FPs popping up on his PC. But Customs are not an issue there; all H24 airports I know of are H24 Customs anyway. Some big ones do have PPR though.
More recently (August) I flew to Caglieri (from the UK, direct) and it was very smooth. A complete contrast to the rest of Sardinia. Not really cheap though
I think there was an infected link on that URL.
IMHO you should have landed and sorted out the PNR vs PPR snafu safely on the ground.
If you were coming in from abroad like you imply, then there was an ATC flight plan, and to me that is yet another indication of the fact that you were going into LIPU.
More recently (August) I flew to Caglieri (from the UK, direct) and it was very smooth. A complete contrast to the rest of Sardinia. Not really cheap though
Alice is an ISP in Italy but I don't see the link with the PPRuNe forum...
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I've already replied to your email, Silvaire1, thanks much for getting in touch directly!
Handling is truly the issue at airports in Italy, not so much landing fees which are just a few euros, a few euros too many in any case!
Some handlers try to play dumb and charge for services which have neither been asked for nor performed. Trust me when I tell you that I've toilet cleaning service charged on a Piper single engine piston!
The good news is that some aviosuperfici are now equipped with 100LL pumps, recently Terni (northeast of Rome) has added automatic pumps for 100LL, Mogas and Jet A1, so any type of aircraft can be fueled. And Terni is a former airport with a 3000' asphalt runway turned into aviosuperficie, to avoid the mess with bureaucracy. Sometimes ingenuity gives the right answers...
Ciao, Luca
Handling is truly the issue at airports in Italy, not so much landing fees which are just a few euros, a few euros too many in any case!
Some handlers try to play dumb and charge for services which have neither been asked for nor performed. Trust me when I tell you that I've toilet cleaning service charged on a Piper single engine piston!
The good news is that some aviosuperfici are now equipped with 100LL pumps, recently Terni (northeast of Rome) has added automatic pumps for 100LL, Mogas and Jet A1, so any type of aircraft can be fueled. And Terni is a former airport with a 3000' asphalt runway turned into aviosuperficie, to avoid the mess with bureaucracy. Sometimes ingenuity gives the right answers...
Ciao, Luca
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What you guys need to do is set up a website called Flying in Italy which lists all the airfields (that are relevant to foreign travellers) and contains up to date information on each one, with fuel, PNR, PPR, opening hours, and verified contact details (phone, fax, email).
This is what the Greeks did (aopa.gr) and they did a brilliant job. It doesn't take much to update such a site, if you are a local pilot and local language speaker.
which lists all the airfields (that are relevant to foreign travellers) and contains up to date information on each one, with fuel, PNR, PPR, opening hours, and verified contact details (phone, fax, email).This is what the Greeks did (aopa.gr) and they did a brilliant job. It doesn't take much to update such a site, if you are a local pilot and local language speaker.
Thread Starter
All your wishes come true at Il portale dei campi di volo italiani .
and could you kindly refrain from telling people what they need to do? I think Luca and AfricanEagle and the others are doing a great job at their forum, and deserve only praise and gratitude. I will certainly join if I survive two crossings of the English Channel, the Alps are my next adventure!
and could you kindly refrain from telling people what they need to do? I think Luca and AfricanEagle and the others are doing a great job at their forum, and deserve only praise and gratitude. I will certainly join if I survive two crossings of the English Channel, the Alps are my next adventure!
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 9th Dec 2010 at 18:54. Reason: Praise!
Thread Starter
It says there's some petrol available, so it might well be worth inquiring about modalities. Which you would want to do anyway before flying there, as always and everywhere. A phone number is given, too, conveniently. Mail address might come in handy, but you'd have to be very lucky to get any kind of reply if not writing in local language. Which applies to most places, with an exception for the low countries and probably Scandinavia and the Balticum.
Reading between the lines - which was never my strong point - I understand you still want Italy to be a decent place - to me it is that really, but my definitions of "decent" are more flexible perhaps. Then again, I never yet tried flying there. But Italy seems much more doable to me than many other countries.
Reading between the lines - which was never my strong point - I understand you still want Italy to be a decent place - to me it is that really, but my definitions of "decent" are more flexible perhaps. Then again, I never yet tried flying there. But Italy seems much more doable to me than many other countries.
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It says there's some petrol available, so it might well be worth inquiring about modalities. Which you would want to do anyway before flying there, as always and everywhere.
Actually, all I expect of an airport (aviation being an inherently/potentially international activity) is that somebody can be contacted there and they reply. Not sure what "decent" means but one does expect certain things, in Europe. One expects communications to work. If I was flying to Upper Volta, that would be different
Taking Oristano, one could fly there directly from anywhere in Schengen which means one could fly there direct from say Cherbourg - around 900nm. That is "international enough". To argue otherwise is to argue that foreigners should avoid Italy.
If I ran an airport, I might reasonably expect somebody to fly to it.
Thread Starter
Well, I never was there, so I won't argue. But there's some contradiction with Airport of Oristano - Fenosu official site, SOGEAOR Society of management of the Oristanesi airports - AV GAS 100 LL
which again confirms the requirement for ad-hoc confirmation. As always, as everywhere.
Edit: navigeo.org even mentions a price for 100LL, though without mentioning any date or source. Not encyclopedical, they'd say on Wikipedia, still I find it hard to believe Avgas is (or at the very least "was") NEVER available at LIER.
which again confirms the requirement for ad-hoc confirmation. As always, as everywhere.
Edit: navigeo.org even mentions a price for 100LL, though without mentioning any date or source. Not encyclopedical, they'd say on Wikipedia, still I find it hard to believe Avgas is (or at the very least "was") NEVER available at LIER.
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 9th Dec 2010 at 19:35.
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The secret to happy flying in Italy.
Relax, take your time, enjoy what happens, don't be in a hurry. You're on holiday.
ATC is normally helpful with foreign pilots, just follow the standard routing within TMAs and be ready to say expected time over next reporting point (they always ask
).
Bigger airports can offer hassles and useless paperwork. Be patient, take it in your stride, it is part of the holiday. If things take longer than expected go for a good lunch or stop over for the night and enjoy a bottle of wine.
Try to use aviosuperfici when you can. No need for customs if you have stopped over in France or any other Schengen country.
Just five hassle free aviosuperfici that come to mind that have avgas available:
Ozzano, near Bologna, 800m grass, self service credit card fuel pump.
Sansepolcro, north of Perugia, 800m grass, excellent homemade food and rooms on site (ring before, Marcello speaks english).
Serristori, just west of Arezzo, 500m tar, excellent restaurant and rooms on site.
Terni, north of Rome, 800m tar, self service credit card fuel pump (JetA1, avgas, mogas), closed on Mondays.
Scalea, way south of Sorrento, 1000+m runway, has a landing fee.
I live and fly in Italy, but I usually phone ahead if I require fuel to check. Do the same.
If you have problems or get desparate send me a pm and I will try to sort it out.
Relax, take your time, enjoy what happens, don't be in a hurry. You're on holiday.
ATC is normally helpful with foreign pilots, just follow the standard routing within TMAs and be ready to say expected time over next reporting point (they always ask
).Bigger airports can offer hassles and useless paperwork. Be patient, take it in your stride, it is part of the holiday. If things take longer than expected go for a good lunch or stop over for the night and enjoy a bottle of wine.
Try to use aviosuperfici when you can. No need for customs if you have stopped over in France or any other Schengen country.
Just five hassle free aviosuperfici that come to mind that have avgas available:
Ozzano, near Bologna, 800m grass, self service credit card fuel pump.
Sansepolcro, north of Perugia, 800m grass, excellent homemade food and rooms on site (ring before, Marcello speaks english).
Serristori, just west of Arezzo, 500m tar, excellent restaurant and rooms on site.
Terni, north of Rome, 800m tar, self service credit card fuel pump (JetA1, avgas, mogas), closed on Mondays.
Scalea, way south of Sorrento, 1000+m runway, has a landing fee.
I live and fly in Italy, but I usually phone ahead if I require fuel to check. Do the same.
If you have problems or get desparate send me a pm and I will try to sort it out.
Last edited by AfricanEagle; 9th Dec 2010 at 20:08.
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still I find it hard to believe Avgas is (or at the very least "was") NEVER available at LIER
Now, things can chage of course, but I find it hard to believe that you could not find a telephone number and someone to speak to at the end of the line.
Italy is full of contradictions, we're the first ones to tell you. But you will generally find people that are willing to help. As African Eagle says, take your time and don't get nervous, it will not help!
We're happy to help any pilot who might need more information.
Ciao, Luca
Thread Starter
Be warned, Luca: if ever I can manage a route across the Alps, you will have your hands full! };-) Think I'll particularly want to fly into Cremona LILR, I have fond memories of the trattoria on the field, and most of all of Egg. Sgr. Hermann - if I spell that right...
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I am sure that the trattoria at Cremona is still there.
Careful with the weight and balance after lunch, the runway is short, and they serve a lot of food...
Careful with the weight and balance after lunch, the runway is short, and they serve a lot of food...
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Earlier in this thread, I posted a picture of an avgas pump which I took at Oristano in September 2010, so to say that avgas has existed there is historically correct - a bit like saying water has existed on Mars. And, like on Mars, the stuff almost certainly still exists deep below the surface.
What I found irritating was being totally unable to establish, pre-flight, whether they have avgas.
Some people live their life as it comes, taking things easy. They fly from the UK to Italy, stopping in 15 places on the way, etc. I tend to use my plane to get from A to B and I pre-plan things for minimal hassle. Of course I want to enjoy the flight, the scenery, and the destination(s) but that is much easier to do if there are no major hassles, which comes back to planning. It is this planning which is difficult to do for some countries.
The bottom line is that if you need avgas you have to go elsewhere first. Then, with full tanks and enough juice for say 1000nm of flying, you can evidently explore Italy at a leisurely pace
What I found irritating was being totally unable to establish, pre-flight, whether they have avgas.
Some people live their life as it comes, taking things easy. They fly from the UK to Italy, stopping in 15 places on the way, etc. I tend to use my plane to get from A to B and I pre-plan things for minimal hassle. Of course I want to enjoy the flight, the scenery, and the destination(s) but that is much easier to do if there are no major hassles, which comes back to planning. It is this planning which is difficult to do for some countries.
The bottom line is that if you need avgas you have to go elsewhere first. Then, with full tanks and enough juice for say 1000nm of flying, you can evidently explore Italy at a leisurely pace
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The bottom line is that if you need avgas you have to go elsewhere first. Then, with full tanks and enough juice for say 1000nm of flying, you can evidently explore Italy at a leisurely pace
Handling charges for Cagliari and Olbia are very high, and while in Cagliari you get little to no service, in Olbia the GA terminal is top notch, given the very high volume of bizjets they get because of the proximity with Costa Smeralda. But they don't always have avgas, believe it or not... but Figari is only some 20 minutes away!
--Luca
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Cagliari cost less than I would have expected - slightly over 50 euros, which is fine for an occassional visit. One spends maybe 500 euros on avgas getting there
Olbia had no avgas.
Corsica should have avgas but this needs to be checked too; on my last trip Figari had no avgas.
If you can burn avtur, things get a lot easier. We need another Mr Thielert but slightly more reliable
Olbia had no avgas.
Corsica should have avgas but this needs to be checked too; on my last trip Figari had no avgas.
If you can burn avtur, things get a lot easier. We need another Mr Thielert but slightly more reliable
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IO540,
I am quickly browsing your trip report to LIEE, and I found some very interesting information, which will require more time on my side for a thorough understanding and reply. You, Sir, have a great airplane!
France had a shortage of avgas pretty much countrywide last summer, generally all the airports have 100LL without problems. Fortunately Propriano is also relatively close to Figari, friends had the exact same issue you had last summer.
This thread is great, I have to agree with Silvaire1! Now I know that next time I am visiting my wife's relatives in Portsmouth (she's half english half italian) I can also go a little east and visit the Shoreham airport, and maybe meet some interesting people over there!
Ciao, Luca
I am quickly browsing your trip report to LIEE, and I found some very interesting information, which will require more time on my side for a thorough understanding and reply. You, Sir, have a great airplane!
France had a shortage of avgas pretty much countrywide last summer, generally all the airports have 100LL without problems. Fortunately Propriano is also relatively close to Figari, friends had the exact same issue you had last summer.
This thread is great, I have to agree with Silvaire1! Now I know that next time I am visiting my wife's relatives in Portsmouth (she's half english half italian) I can also go a little east and visit the Shoreham airport, and maybe meet some interesting people over there!
Ciao, Luca