2,000km glider flight

[bad bear]

This week two pilots, one British one Polish, flew a Nimbus 4 in Argentina on a pre-declared flight of 2,000kms. Most of the flight was flown between FL180 and FL250. The flight took 14 hours and the cockpit was un pressurised.

I wonder what the average PPL holder thinks about flights like this.

bb

[BackPacker]

Quite impressive. Particularly from a physiological point of view.

I assume they were flying in mountain wave or something, making the actual flying and finding lift relatively easy.

[Jim59]

I assume they were flying in mountain wave or something, making the actual flying and finding lift relatively easy.

You must be joking. It's a huge achievement to do what they have done and clearly not possible without using mountain wave.

Mountain waves are not some sort of dual carriageway in the sky, they have many breaks, can be invisible and key routing decisions have to be made frequently - if you get it wrong you are lilely to be an awful long way from a place of safety. To cover the distance in daylight you need to be flying at or near VNE much of the time (and that is somewhat reduced at the sorts of altitudes quoted), the temperature can be very low with liquids freezing and the physical endurance required is non-trivial.

Congratulations to them.

[BackPacker]

I mean relatively easy compared to doing the same thing in thermals.

[hatzflyer]

Yeah its so easy its done every day of the week!

[gasax]

The reason they can do it there, is because the geography actually makes it possible - there are very very few places in the world where this sort of geography exists.

One of the guys from the local gliding club has experience in the area and is going back there within the next couple of months. Now the area has been 'discovered' by the gliding world there is intense competition to set and improve these records. Impressive though it is I would expect it to be eclipsed within 18 months!

[bad bear]

I guess I should add the link to the glider pilot on line contest site OLC Flight information - Sebastian Kawa (PL) - 01.12.2010

The rules of this competition are that each pilot's 6 best flights for the year are scored acording to the distance and glider handicap. The highest score wins but there are also different regions and triangular flights also have their own league
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[David Roberts]

Not taking anything away from Bruce Cooper who was P2 to Sebastian Kawa (PL), but the world record - done in the Andes - is over 3000km in a day, by Klaus Ohlmann a few years ago. Klaus is there every northern hemisphere winter.

Sebastian is one of the world's top glider pilots, having won more international championships than anyone else I believe.

Lovely story about Sebastian. He is a surgeon. Some years ago at a gliding venue in S.France some guy needed some minor medical attention so we asked Sebastian if he could help. 'Not really' he said 'I am a gynaecologist'. I suppose even medical specialisms have gone too far...

[bad bear]

To be precise David, the declared 3 tp distance record is 2643.2 kms, but the free 3 tp is as you say 3,009kms. To explain to the non gliding types a "declared" task is considered more challenging as one has to state before take off where the turn points are and go there even if the weather turns bad.

Any way, the question is, what does the average PPL think about flights like these, do many realise that gliders do flights of such long durations, distances, altitudes and speeds?

bb

[micromalc]

but do they care

In response to your questions, I imagine that most ppl's are aware of glider pilots achievements, but, sadly, most ppl's I come across are not really interested. I am fortunate enough to fly SSEA's, Microlights and Gliders and I have learnt that the pilots within these groups, generally, are only interested in their types, which I suppose is understandable but a little blinkered !!
( I now expect to be shot down in flames)

[BackPacker]

I have learnt that the pilots within these groups, generally, are only interested in their types,

Actually I find the same thing. To each their own, I suppose.

What I find worrying though is that both communities (glider and VFR/PPL) don't seem to have a grasp of each others operating characteristics, and therefore get into habits that make things unsafe for themselves and for others. A little understanding of the other groups would go a long way in making things safer for both groups.

Examples are powered aircraft transiting glider fields with winch launches at low altitude, but also gross misuse of transponders (mandatory, even for gliders, in NL) by the glider community (leaving them on "alt" while being launched for instance - against all advice in the AIC).

And as far as records are concerned - well, every sport has these endurance types but they form a very small minority. My estimate is that both powered and glider pilots are quite satisfied with flights lasting two hours or so and will only very occasionally do flights longer than that.

[Jim59]

And as far as records are concerned - well, every sport has these endurance types but they form a very small minority. My estimate is that both powered and glider pilots are quite satisfied with flights lasting two hours or so and will only very occasionally do flights longer than that.

Looking at the gliding National Ladder for 2010 (flights in the UK only) there are 4698 flights logged with an average distance of 236 km. If I assume an average speed of 75 kph then the average ladder flight is 3 hours.

230 pilots averaged > 236 km per flight.

The pilot who reported the greatest distance averaged 373 km over 45 flight - probably between 4 and 5 hours per flight on average.

I rarely fly less than two hours per flight in my glider or more than 10 mins per flight in a powered aeroplane (but as a tug pilot that is not too odd!)

[BackPacker]

Looking at the gliding National Ladder for 2010

there are 4698 flights logged

Well, that's not really a random sample, is it? I mean, if you go through the trouble of signing up with the ladder, buying the logger devices and so on, you're already in the moderate-to-high endurance bracket, I'd say. Or are you really saying that the whole glider community in the UK only managed 4698 flights, altogether, over the whole of 2010?

[Jim59]

Well, that's not really a random sample, is it? I mean, if you go through the trouble of signing up with the ladder, buying the logger devices and so on, you're already in the moderate-to-high endurance bracket, I'd say. Or are you really saying that the whole glider community in the UK only managed 4698 flights, altogether, over the whole of 2010?

I don't have the means to analyse all flights by all pilots - but the ladder does represent some of the flights of 632 pilots - which are, I suggest, a few more than

well, every sport has these endurance types but they form a very small minority

The point I really wanted to make is that a significant number of glider pilots regularly fly long distances taking several hours on most of the days when the conditions are suitable - and that many of them are longer in distance and duration than is generally realised outside gliding communities. The 2000 km + flights that started this thread are still fine achievements.

[micromalc]

2000k

well, a fantastic achievement, certainly beats flying across oxfordshire for an expensive bacon roll.

[cats_five]

Originally Posted by BackPacker

Well, that's not really a random sample, is it? I mean, if you go through the trouble of signing up with the ladder, buying the logger devices and so on, you're already in the moderate-to-high endurance bracket, I'd say. Or are you really saying that the whole glider community in the UK only managed 4698 flights, altogether, over the whole of 2010?

There is a flight on there which has a distance (undeclared) of 1k or thereabouts. There are several that are well under 50k, and quite a few people put their 50k flights on. There are also many flights not recorded for lots of reasons - probably a substantial majority. For ladder flights basic loggers are acceptable - PDAs and the the various £100 flight recorders - there is no need for an FAI approved logger though that's what most people are carrying.

[Mark1234]

With a foot in both camps..

Obviously it's not a random sample, there's a lot of short flights that go on in gliders; it's not always possible to stay up, there's training, and we're way more weather dependent. That said, most folks who fly gliders beyond the training stage in the UK will be up for 3+hours if they have the option (lift, and not having to give the glider back to anyone else). Gliding clubs here tend to be quite keen on cross country, usually the club has some loggers that can be borrowed, and the (comparatively) weak conditions mean it takes a while to get anywhere (my first 50k trip took me about 4hrs, mainly due to a certain reluctance to leave a thermal and go looking for the next one). I've not flown in BP's territory to compare, however there's quite a XC culture in UK gliding, far more so than my experience of aus. In contrast the aussie PPL type is far more likely to go serious distance than the UK PPL type - a difference I ascribe largely to the environment(!)

I think there's a valid point however, that many (not just PPL's) would be surprised by what a glider can do. However, I'm *completely* with BackPacker's comment regarding appreciation of the other's habbits - I'm surprised that neither group briefs/trains on others habbits, and when/why/where to concern yourself; I suspect many PPL's would be horrified at the concentrations of gliders that can appear under the right circumstances.. and on the flipside, I suspect many glider folks would be horrified by the level to which a PPL can lookout, even when they're not busy with 'office work' compared to where the glider folks sit..

[cats_five]

Originally Posted by Mark1234

<snip>
I suspect many glider folks would be horrified by the level to which a PPL can lookout, even when they're not busy with 'office work' compared to where the glider folks sit..

I'm not sure what you mean here - horrified by the lack of the average PPL lookout or amazed by the quantity and quality of it.

[Mark1234]

Neither! In retrospect horrified is a rather strong word. I'm not casting any aspersions, the quality and quantity will vary between pilots no matter what they fly.

However, without an engine you necessarily sit a lot further forward in relation to the wing in a glider (due CG), usually under a nice big bubble canopy with a rather panoramic view. It's little wider than I am, and are few bits of the sky I can't see into. Gliding I check the map (and/or the PDA-GPS combo) occasionally, listen to the vario (audio climb feedback), and look out the window almost entirely, rarely talk to anyone, and have little book keeping to do.

Getting into a C150 for the first time I was struck by the rather average viewing opportunity. You normally are parked between the wings, with significantly more chunks of airframe around you. There's also a lot more stuff going on to distract one from peering out the window.

Anyhow this is drifting, sorry! Awesome flight by any measure.

[jackx123]

Enormous

It's an enormous feat. Having done >1,000km as P2 almost 30 years ago in an ASH-25 lasting over 11hours in Europe, I recognize the challenges these guys went through, not to mention the strain on the bladder