Frost
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: london
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10/10
10 points to the man above......easy method that works well on most planes. Have even used this method with the same B and Q de-icer. Takes a while but you can be assured you have de-iced properly and that you even have some hold over against further frost. ( read the label ). Use your fingers to check you have got it all off and if you have a hi tail, don't just spray it over the top and hope it does the job....get a ladder.
Give your self that extra time before your flight to complete these tasks without having to rush.
Safe flying guys
Give your self that extra time before your flight to complete these tasks without having to rush.
Safe flying guys
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London UK
Posts: 517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's good to see some some sensible stuff on here at last!
The ONLY fluids that should be used for de-icing are the approved Type I to IV fluids. They should be applied in the manner that the manufacturer recommends.
Never ever use anything else. Especially not plain bl**dy water!
Now back to the original question.
Why not get the aircraft fuelled the night before, do your preflight checks in the hangar, then just pull it out and go if you are worried about the aircraft icing up whilst parked outside.
Don't mess around with icing. If it's below freezing on the ground, then do everything you can to avoid getting any moisture on the aircraft.
If the relative humidity is high and the temperature is low, then think about using a deicing fluid that has a decent hold over time to protect you from frost and once airborne, keep a close eye on the areas of the aircraft that ice up first (places like the temp guage probe on a PA28 for example) to give you some pre-warning of icing issues and keep out of cloud and rain.
The ONLY fluids that should be used for de-icing are the approved Type I to IV fluids. They should be applied in the manner that the manufacturer recommends.
Never ever use anything else. Especially not plain bl**dy water!
Now back to the original question.
Hello, it's been a while since I took my Met exam and I'm trying to refresh my understanding of frost and it's effect on flying VFR. On days like this weekend, where there's frost forecast to say 11am, what's the implication of (air and ground) frost for flying a plane hangared overnight? Maybe I'd like to get the plane out around 9am, do my checks, fuel up and then depart an hour later. If I plan to avoid flying in cloud what should I be aware of regarding frost during preflight checks and departure? Thanks for your help.
Don't mess around with icing. If it's below freezing on the ground, then do everything you can to avoid getting any moisture on the aircraft.
If the relative humidity is high and the temperature is low, then think about using a deicing fluid that has a decent hold over time to protect you from frost and once airborne, keep a close eye on the areas of the aircraft that ice up first (places like the temp guage probe on a PA28 for example) to give you some pre-warning of icing issues and keep out of cloud and rain.
Light a/c not my field but I would just like to know how you chaps heat your B & Q sprayed de-icing fluid?
The Winter operations training I do every year clearly state that it is the "HEAT" in the fluid that removes the ice, the fluid then remains unfrozen due to it's chemical properties providing the holdover time etc.
Just askin' as some of the comments above (to my non-light aircraft experience) are just plain scary.
The Winter operations training I do every year clearly state that it is the "HEAT" in the fluid that removes the ice, the fluid then remains unfrozen due to it's chemical properties providing the holdover time etc.
Just askin' as some of the comments above (to my non-light aircraft experience) are just plain scary.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting flying gliders in this weather - if it is below freezing when we get them out of the hangar, they frost up pretty quickly.
The good news is that with an East wind, by the time it gets to the midlands the sun usually comes out. If the glider is parked sensibly in the sunshine, the frost simply sublimates. After 20 minutes or so off you go, dressed in snowboots, long johns, sweaters, ski suit, woolly gloves, scarf, Russian fur hat with ear flaps, aviator sunglasses, electrically heated socks - and a parachute.
The worst bit about flying gliders in this weather is driving the quad bike to tow the glider back to the launchpoint.
The good news is that with an East wind, by the time it gets to the midlands the sun usually comes out. If the glider is parked sensibly in the sunshine, the frost simply sublimates. After 20 minutes or so off you go, dressed in snowboots, long johns, sweaters, ski suit, woolly gloves, scarf, Russian fur hat with ear flaps, aviator sunglasses, electrically heated socks - and a parachute.
The worst bit about flying gliders in this weather is driving the quad bike to tow the glider back to the launchpoint.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I washed my car yesterday. I used hot water and then hosed it off. I then got a chamois out to dry it. The car iced up whilst I was doing it. Given that it was only just freezing and the car had been in the heated garage until I started to wash it. How sensible do you think it is to use plain water in sub zero temperatures as a de-icer?
And in most cases it won't work on the wings.
No water can possibly enter control linkages on a TB20? Want to bet your life on that IO?
There are places I would not use water, or anything else. For example my elevator trim jackscrew was "lubricated" with some gunge, by a maintenance company doing the Annual. It froze at FL140, -20C or so. With an A&P, we dismantled it and cleaned it out, packing it with the right grease.
I am not talking about hosing an aircraft down, in sub zero conditions. But I would not hose down a simple GA aircraft with a de-icer solution either, all over, because the stuff will get into all sorts of places, displace lubricants, etc.
Last edited by IO540; 27th Nov 2010 at 22:45.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Water gets everywhere, you don't just have to get it into the linkages, you can stick surfaces together, get it into hinges etc.etc. Even by just chucking a bucket over it.
You simply never ever use water in an attempt to de-ice an aircraft. This isn't a debateable point really. There is too much history in this game to prove that it's an appalling idea.
De-icing fluid was designed for a reason, so use that! It's not cheap, but then again, what is in aviation?
I would suggest that you spray the stuff everywhere, especially into hinges and linkages. Aircraft de-icing fluid is designed not to damage aircraft. It's not got chloride salts in it for example. So just spray the aircraft and if it concerns you, then get it cleaned.
If you are worried about linkages getting blasted clean by hoses etc, then don't fly through any rain... If you were using a jet wash directly on the greased parts, then that would be stupid, but an ordinary hose pipe will do naff all. The linkages are greased regularly anyway to combat this sort of problem.
I'd be more worried about potential icing issues than a bit of grease being perhaps washed away anyway. A dry coupling will wear out quicker and cause problems over a period of time. Icing can simply kill you fast. It's a far more serious problem.
As for grease freezing up, it does happen, but was the grease used the correct one? Or was it just whatever happened to be in the workshop at the time? In cold conditions, then different lubrication should be used to help prevent issues like that. -20 isn't really that cold in aircraft terms, but using summer time lubricants at that temperature is asking for trouble.
I do hope you gave the company that did the annual a rocket for not using the right stuff.
You simply never ever use water in an attempt to de-ice an aircraft. This isn't a debateable point really. There is too much history in this game to prove that it's an appalling idea.
De-icing fluid was designed for a reason, so use that! It's not cheap, but then again, what is in aviation?
I would suggest that you spray the stuff everywhere, especially into hinges and linkages. Aircraft de-icing fluid is designed not to damage aircraft. It's not got chloride salts in it for example. So just spray the aircraft and if it concerns you, then get it cleaned.
If you are worried about linkages getting blasted clean by hoses etc, then don't fly through any rain... If you were using a jet wash directly on the greased parts, then that would be stupid, but an ordinary hose pipe will do naff all. The linkages are greased regularly anyway to combat this sort of problem.
I'd be more worried about potential icing issues than a bit of grease being perhaps washed away anyway. A dry coupling will wear out quicker and cause problems over a period of time. Icing can simply kill you fast. It's a far more serious problem.
As for grease freezing up, it does happen, but was the grease used the correct one? Or was it just whatever happened to be in the workshop at the time? In cold conditions, then different lubrication should be used to help prevent issues like that. -20 isn't really that cold in aircraft terms, but using summer time lubricants at that temperature is asking for trouble.
I do hope you gave the company that did the annual a rocket for not using the right stuff.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 27th Nov 2010 at 23:11.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Melt the ice not the airframe
The snow and ice of winter has arrived here in the east of England. Aircraft parked outside on the airfield now have a winter coating of ice on their exposed surfaces. What are the best methods for getting this ice off a C172 without harming the aircraft?
As in most things, there is an inverse relationship beween time and money.
1. Wait for the temperature to come up.
2. Pull the plane into a heated hangar.
3. Spray it with de-icing fluid.
1. Wait for the temperature to come up.
2. Pull the plane into a heated hangar.
3. Spray it with de-icing fluid.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Steven. As already mentioned. Brush any loose snow off. Pull the aircraft into the sun (it aids ice removal enormously) then spray with de-icing fluid.
Mick should have some in the hangar, Victoria should know where it's kept. You don't want to be trashing EC's paintwork by scraping away at ice!
Mick should have some in the hangar, Victoria should know where it's kept. You don't want to be trashing EC's paintwork by scraping away at ice!
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are quite right SayItAgain it is EC I had in mind. John was going to give me a lesson on night flying EC this evening but we had scrub it due to ice all over the exposed parts of the airframe.
Some interesting discussions in the FROST thread. It includes a very useful URL for a NASA training module on dealing with ice.
Finding a good place where it can catch the sun and thaw the ice gets my vote at the moment. Splashing warm glycol about seems a great way of dealing with ice if there is hard standing everywhere with effective drainage. However, for aircraft parked on grass it is probably not good for the airfield since I suspect it would poison the ground.
Some interesting discussions in the FROST thread. It includes a very useful URL for a NASA training module on dealing with ice.
Finding a good place where it can catch the sun and thaw the ice gets my vote at the moment. Splashing warm glycol about seems a great way of dealing with ice if there is hard standing everywhere with effective drainage. However, for aircraft parked on grass it is probably not good for the airfield since I suspect it would poison the ground.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Say hi to John for me when you see him next. (It's Ifor by the way!)
Glycol isn't ideal to be stuffing into the environment willy nilly, it's not the most environmentally friendly stuff (it's not lethal of course.)
In real terms though, I doubt very much whether a couple of litres will make the blindest bit of difference to anything, but like most things, it's the cumulative effect that's the problem. Though if it's only a one off thing, then I really wouldn't worry about the environmental impact too much. It really isn't that bad.
Glycol isn't ideal to be stuffing into the environment willy nilly, it's not the most environmentally friendly stuff (it's not lethal of course.)
In real terms though, I doubt very much whether a couple of litres will make the blindest bit of difference to anything, but like most things, it's the cumulative effect that's the problem. Though if it's only a one off thing, then I really wouldn't worry about the environmental impact too much. It really isn't that bad.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What do you use to get frost off, SAS?
Something 100% guaranteed to not cause aluminium corrosion.
It also needs to be safe to carry the spray kit in the back of the plane, for de-frosting it away from base.
I know the stuff which does that (I use it in the prop TKS system) but it cost me £200 for a 20 litre drum
Something 100% guaranteed to not cause aluminium corrosion.
It also needs to be safe to carry the spray kit in the back of the plane, for de-frosting it away from base.
I know the stuff which does that (I use it in the prop TKS system) but it cost me £200 for a 20 litre drum
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Dorking, England
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some really good advice and thoughts. Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply.
Yes, I agree and will see what I can do.
This is a concern I already had. How can I predict the likelihood of this in advance? Thanks.
Say again s l o w l y: Why not get the aircraft fuelled the night before, do your preflight checks in the hangar, then just pull it out and go if you are worried about the aircraft icing up whilst parked outside. Don't mess around with icing. If it's below freezing on the ground, then do everything you can to avoid getting any moisture on the aircraft.
mary meagher: Interesting flying gliders in this weather - if it is below freezing when we get them out of the hangar, they frost up pretty quickly.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by IO540
What do you use to get frost off, SAS?
Something 100% guaranteed to not cause aluminium corrosion.
It also needs to be safe to carry the spray kit in the back of the plane, for de-frosting it away from base.
I know the stuff which does that (I use it in the prop TKS system) but it cost me £200 for a 20 litre drum
Something 100% guaranteed to not cause aluminium corrosion.
It also needs to be safe to carry the spray kit in the back of the plane, for de-frosting it away from base.
I know the stuff which does that (I use it in the prop TKS system) but it cost me £200 for a 20 litre drum
It is safe on paintwork and aluminium and unlike generic car type defrost stuff, it's safe on perspex windows too. Though I have seen lorry deicer that seems to be the same as Aeroshell and a fraction of the price, but I haven't used it myself.
I've heard of some de-ice pellets from Kilfrost that you apply by hand too, though I've not used them. Has anyone any experience of them?
If you're paying £200 for a 20 litre drum of TKS fluid, then you're getting done!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Surrey
Posts: 1,217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Light a/c not my field but I would just like to know how you chaps heat your B & Q sprayed de-icing fluid?
The Winter operations training I do every year clearly state that it is the "HEAT" in the fluid that removes the ice, the fluid then remains unfrozen due to it's chemical properties providing the holdover time etc.
Just askin' as some of the comments above (to my non-light aircraft experience) are just plain scary.
The Winter operations training I do every year clearly state that it is the "HEAT" in the fluid that removes the ice, the fluid then remains unfrozen due to it's chemical properties providing the holdover time etc.
Just askin' as some of the comments above (to my non-light aircraft experience) are just plain scary.
We are removing a little bit of frost on a -2 kind of day , not trying to get a 747 clear of a 6 inch snow covering in Munich. The chemicals substantially reduce the freezing point of water (after all that is how TKS deice works!) so the frost melts even if you have not heated the backpack. The liquid has a reasonable hold over so it doesn't refreeze. However, I take a towel round the aircraft to mop up all the now liquid frost. Clearly a bit impractical on a 747 (unless you have a lot of hostiees!)
IO,
The stuff I get from the airport is a two part mix (which they do for me), I am 99% sure it is the Shell product and I have used less than 5 litres in a year.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My impression from reading the comments here is that warm water is not to be used for de-icing and that Cat 1 aircraft de-icing fluid should be used. This of course raises the issue of where this fluid can be bought retail in the UK. I had a look at the usual suspects – Transair, Adam’s The Flying Shop, Harry Mendelssohn and AFE – but no sign of de-icing fluid in their on-line catalogues. Anyone able to recommend a few favourite pilot supply shops that retail de-icing fluid?
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kilfrost RDF is pretty good, if not cheap. Aeroshell 07 works well too.
The other small point is that unless you are built like Geoff Capes, the 20 litre drum is damn heavy, so one needs to decant the stuff into smaller more manageable containers. Of course these must not leak especially if carried in the plane! I carry a 2 litre prop TKS refill container of fluid #7, I bought a quantity of these HDPE bottles which are also safe for carrying IPA (for putting into avgas, 0.5% to 1%, for high altitude flights at -30C or below - not that I know of a single case of TB20 fuel icing, unlike the Aztec in which it is reportedly endemic).
There is a lot of other de-icing stuff around, much cheaper, but one needs to be careful with "car" chemicals. I know of a TB owner in the USA who wiped out his £3000 (?) windscreen by applying Rain-X to it
All that said, if you have to pay £200 for 20 litres of #7 and have to spray it all over the plane after a cold frosty night with no sign of the temps going above zero, it's going to cost a packet.