Examiners The Good The Bad the Ugly?
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A friend of mine was having his PPL re-val and his instructor pulled the mixture shut after takeoff - in a SE. At about 500ft. The engine did restart OK.... this was at the place where I am based.
Actual engine shut downs on MEP renewals are just about total "no nos" these days but I wonder if they still go on for the intial test?
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About 8 hours into my PPL training I was doing a few circuits with my instructor / examiner and on landing for the 4th time he said in a frustrated voice "I've had enough of this! I bet you think you know it all!" Without the slightest thought and a big smile I quipped back "yeah!"
His reply threw me entirely " Right off you go then " and with that he got out. He must have been laughing all the way back to the club house seeing the look on my face.
Once my brain caught up with events I went and flew my first solo.
His reply threw me entirely " Right off you go then " and with that he got out. He must have been laughing all the way back to the club house seeing the look on my face.
Once my brain caught up with events I went and flew my first solo.
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Actual engine shut downs on MEP renewals are just about total "no nos" these days but I wonder if they still go on for the intial test
Canada just ended the foolishness of demanding a full in flight shut down and feather as a requirement for the multi engine rating. The aircraft handles exactly the same with zero thrust set as compared to having the engine actually feathered and leaving the engine running preserves the safety of having the "failed" engine available if things start going pear shaped.
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Bose
Thanks.
Do you think they are still worth while compared with zero power?
Thanks.
Do you think they are still worth while compared with zero power?
I have mentioned it a number of times at Examiner events and the general consensus is that I am agreed with. However getting it changed is more difficult. I think it will come in due course.
Me too. I am still amazed at how few know that there is no certification requirement that the aircraft/engine makers have to prove you can actually restart the engine in flight under all or even any conditions. All that is required is that the emergency procedures section of the POH have a restart procedure. If you are doing a for real inflight shut down and then restart you are now a test pilot.....
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Eek
Lined up on 9000 ft runway, PA28, IMC test, Off you go states my instructor, climbing through 70 feet, bang, up comes the front cowlings, s***, says I, intending to land ahead, when I am bundled off the controls, yes forcibly, he screaming I have, and then mumbling to himself, Keep Calm *****, Keep Calm *****, as he banks left at 150 feet, goes back downwind, comes round and lands on the runway, forcing a large jet on 5 mile final to go around
I sat there utterly dumbstruck. Handled that well he says to me, taxied in, got out, fixed down the cowling, and suggested we go again.
I handed him the headset, Another day I offerred.
I sat there utterly dumbstruck. Handled that well he says to me, taxied in, got out, fixed down the cowling, and suggested we go again.
I handed him the headset, Another day I offerred.
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O yes, I did that once in Ireland, forced a big jet on 5 mile final to go around....and around and around and around. Alas, the grass on which my PA18 wound up after a misunderstanding with the Tower, proved to be a trifle damp, and I ended up like Alcock and Brown, arse end up in an Irish Bog.
Waited quite a while to discuss it with the Irish Police. At last the officer arrived, got out his notebook
"How many injured?" None, I replied.
"Any damage" No, no damage, I replied (which was, incredibly, true)
"Well then," he said, snapping his notebook shut, "I don't need to make a report then!" And that was that. I never did get a bill from Aer Lingus.
Waited quite a while to discuss it with the Irish Police. At last the officer arrived, got out his notebook
"How many injured?" None, I replied.
"Any damage" No, no damage, I replied (which was, incredibly, true)
"Well then," he said, snapping his notebook shut, "I don't need to make a report then!" And that was that. I never did get a bill from Aer Lingus.
ME shutdowns
There *is* value in the required shutdown during training because it's the only time that the stude gets to see that the aircraft will behave "as advertised" with one feathered and that the zero-thrust setting is a realistic alternative for training. It's also needed to *find* the zero thrust setting.
I don't see the point of a shutdown on the initial test because they've only just seen it during training, but maybe there's a weak argument for a reminder every few years.
Like Bose I usually put the shutdown at the end of the test. I'm not too bothered about being in a lightly-loaded single-engined twin under these conditions but being chased by the fire engines is embarrassing when the damn thing starts easily as soon as the aircraft is on the ground! I think my count is: 1 intentional shutdown on final for mechanical reasons, 3 failures to restart after a deliberate shutdown, and several very reluctant restarts that can't have done the starter motor much good.
HFD
I don't see the point of a shutdown on the initial test because they've only just seen it during training, but maybe there's a weak argument for a reminder every few years.
Like Bose I usually put the shutdown at the end of the test. I'm not too bothered about being in a lightly-loaded single-engined twin under these conditions but being chased by the fire engines is embarrassing when the damn thing starts easily as soon as the aircraft is on the ground! I think my count is: 1 intentional shutdown on final for mechanical reasons, 3 failures to restart after a deliberate shutdown, and several very reluctant restarts that can't have done the starter motor much good.
HFD
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Surely, an engine stoppage in a twin is a non-event when in cruise, due to the more than adequate rudder authority, but is a major event at the other times.
So there is little point in training it in cruise with the engine actually stopped.
If you are going to do a real engine shutdown, you do it right after takeoff, or at 250ft on the ILS, in IMC
Both of these scenarios would result in a lot of dead examiners...
So there is little point in training it in cruise with the engine actually stopped.
If you are going to do a real engine shutdown, you do it right after takeoff, or at 250ft on the ILS, in IMC
Both of these scenarios would result in a lot of dead examiners...
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Actually in my experience an engine at zero or very low power is far more of a handful than an engine shut down with a feathered prop. for obvious reasons - it just amplifies what happens when the donkey quits for real.
An engine stop (or a reduction to zero power) in the crusie should be a non event - however the pilot does need to be able to identify the failed engine, trim, and make the engine secure. While your heart is missing a beat, as with any drill, you are more likely to sequence through the vital actions if you have demonstrated the drill previoulsy.
While I have fortunately not had it happen to me, in fact after a failure on the climb out, a failure during the descent can be nearly as challenging, while a failure in the cruise should come as nothing more than a unpleasant surprise and a sense of urgency to bring the flight to a successful early conclusion.
An engine stop (or a reduction to zero power) in the crusie should be a non event - however the pilot does need to be able to identify the failed engine, trim, and make the engine secure. While your heart is missing a beat, as with any drill, you are more likely to sequence through the vital actions if you have demonstrated the drill previoulsy.
While I have fortunately not had it happen to me, in fact after a failure on the climb out, a failure during the descent can be nearly as challenging, while a failure in the cruise should come as nothing more than a unpleasant surprise and a sense of urgency to bring the flight to a successful early conclusion.
IO ... if you had experience as an ME FI or FE you would have seen the typical stude's reaction to seeing the prop stopped ...didn't you find it a useful part of the course?
Fundamentally, studes need to see and deal with as many as possible of the situations that they may need to deal with later. Having experience of flying the aircraft with one engine feathered takes away the unknown, and having seen that zero thrust simulates the situation fairly accurately the training for the other areas that you mention can continue safely.
HFD
(edited to fix minor typo, marginal grammar left unchanged
)
Fundamentally, studes need to see and deal with as many as possible of the situations that they may need to deal with later. Having experience of flying the aircraft with one engine feathered takes away the unknown, and having seen that zero thrust simulates the situation fairly accurately the training for the other areas that you mention can continue safely.
HFD
(edited to fix minor typo, marginal grammar left unchanged
)
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I haven't done any ME training so far, but I have deliberately stopped the prop on a SE/fixed pitch aircraft in-flight (under controlled circumstances) and found the experience very valuable.
I would not consider my ME training complete without having stopped, feathered, unfeathered and restarted one of the engines a couple of times. (Or maybe even both of them...
)
I would not consider my ME training complete without having stopped, feathered, unfeathered and restarted one of the engines a couple of times. (Or maybe even both of them...
)
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Knowledge
This drift is paralelling the 'no need to teach spin training' in the UK/JAA PPL. The things that kill ya are CFIT, either caused by spin, total ignorance and awareness, engine failure at an awkward moment etc.
If a pilot, has not experienced, call it an event, then they are 90% on their way to certain calamity. If however the event has been shown, (demonstrated), all be it under 'safe circumstances', then at least the limited knowledge of what to expect is there. Memories of my 'inverted spin' training when we 'lost' 7000 feet in the process.
If a pilot, has not experienced, call it an event, then they are 90% on their way to certain calamity. If however the event has been shown, (demonstrated), all be it under 'safe circumstances', then at least the limited knowledge of what to expect is there. Memories of my 'inverted spin' training when we 'lost' 7000 feet in the process.
"A friend of mine was having his PPL re-val and his instructor pulled the mixture shut after takeoff "
My instructor always did that during my PPL training. Once, downwind at around 800' he did it and pulled the mixture control and now broken cable right out of the Cessna's dashboard . So a real engine failure and one of my best ever landings.
My instructor always did that during my PPL training. Once, downwind at around 800' he did it and pulled the mixture control and now broken cable right out of the Cessna's dashboard . So a real engine failure and one of my best ever landings.
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It is a stupid procedure. At the low speed involved, and the high pitch attitude, the engine could easily stop, and you won't restart it with a starter.
It is the kind of stupid stunt which macho instructors do to impress people - especially females.
It teaches the student almost nothing, because the psychology with an instructor in the RHS is very different to when flying without one. I was happy to go up in (most of) the flying school wreckage (the worst of which incidentally belonged to the local AOC holder) because if the engine quit (which I thought was quite likely given their dodgy fuelling practices) I was fully intending to just fold my arms and let the instructor land it... and organise the pickup of the slightly worse for wear wreck which would never again fly straight after the wings were screwed back on.
It is the kind of stupid stunt which macho instructors do to impress people - especially females.
It teaches the student almost nothing, because the psychology with an instructor in the RHS is very different to when flying without one. I was happy to go up in (most of) the flying school wreckage (the worst of which incidentally belonged to the local AOC holder) because if the engine quit (which I thought was quite likely given their dodgy fuelling practices) I was fully intending to just fold my arms and let the instructor land it... and organise the pickup of the slightly worse for wear wreck which would never again fly straight after the wings were screwed back on.
I agree that deliberately shutting down the only source of power in the circuit is rather unwise, but why do you think the engine will stop (rotating)? Have you ever tried to stop an engine rotating? It's very difficult if you can't feather it - think back to your MEP training.
During aerobatic courses we are supposed to teach airborne restarts but it's next to impossible to stop the damn thing, except sometimes in a sustained spin in some types - and then re-starting after only a few seconds delay is never a problem. The starting issues we discussed earlier are after being shutdown for a couple of minutes.
(Note - I'm not condoning pulling mixture below 2000ft in anything).
Edited to add: from your frequent comments about the state of school aircraft it seems you chose badly - I'm aware of many schools in my local patch with good aircraft so can only assume that they exist everywhere.
HFD
During aerobatic courses we are supposed to teach airborne restarts but it's next to impossible to stop the damn thing, except sometimes in a sustained spin in some types - and then re-starting after only a few seconds delay is never a problem. The starting issues we discussed earlier are after being shutdown for a couple of minutes.
(Note - I'm not condoning pulling mixture below 2000ft in anything).
Edited to add: from your frequent comments about the state of school aircraft it seems you chose badly - I'm aware of many schools in my local patch with good aircraft so can only assume that they exist everywhere.
HFD
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During aerobatic courses we are supposed to teach airborne restarts but it's next to impossible to stop the damn thing,
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I agree that deliberately shutting down the only source of power in the circuit is rather unwise, but why do you think the engine will stop (rotating)? Have you ever tried to stop an engine rotating? It's very difficult if you can't feather it - think back to your MEP training.
Yes, I have been in a C150 where the instructor stopped the engine. He did it at about 3500ft. One has to slow down to nearly Vs and briefly pitch up.
The same bloke did to with a female pleasure flight passenger as well, at 2000ft.
I've never had any real formal MEP training.