Instructor??

[7of9]

Can any one be an instructor on SEP's without holding a CPL if they wish to instruct without being paid?

I don't have the Money to do the CPL course & would like to be an instructor In the future & not bothered about being paid.

Trev

[JTN]

LASORS is your friend (search from the CAA site). Section H applies.

You don't have to hold a CPL, but you do have to have passed the CPL theory papers and done the 200 hrs flying and the instructor rating itself, so it's unlikely to save you much cash going down this route.

As far as I can see, the major advantage of being a PPL instructor is in the reduced medical requirement (class 2 v class 1).

I'm sure there will be an instructor along in a minute to correct anything I've missed...

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by 7of9

Can any one be an instructor on SEP's without holding a CPL if they wish to instruct without being paid?

Yes. BCPL(Restricted) holder with valid FI Rating with only a Class 2 Medical.

[BCPL(Restricted) not available since 2 Oct 1988 so doesn't help you....]

Isn't declining remuneration somewhat immoral? An employer might prioritise use of an individual whom he doesn't have to pay. Doesn't non-remuneration de-value the vocation of the Flying Instructor?

[7of9]

Isn't declining remuneration somewhat immoral? An employer might prioritise use of an individual whom he doesn't have to pay. Doesn't non-remuneration de-value the vocation of the Flying Instructor?

When i have the hours i wish to help the club out by instructing at weekends, I don't see the point in me paying £5000 for a CPL that i am never going to advance from or earn the money from to get back that amount, like the young instructors who are using it to advance their hours so they can go on to be airline pilots or otherwise.

I would like to pass on the benefit of my knowledge to others like my Uncle once did twenty years ago when he was of similar age to me & in the same situation & was able to do what i am asking.

I am not trying to devalue any instructor but the club has a shortage at the moment & more people than can handle wanting air experience flights & trial flights, I don't see why a PPL can't take up another person on one of the Air Experience flights when instructors are busy & not take the money for it, i don't make the rules but do comply with them, just trying to find a way to help.

I am at my club most weekends & fly when i can afford which is an hour every other weekend at the moment, seems a shame to be turning folk away or postponing flights because instructors are thin on the ground or busy & i am sat there watching planes sat on the ground not earning there keep.

I fly friends & family around OK for no payment or reward so don't see the problem in wanting to help out by flying members of the public around for the same deal except i am prevented by rules in doing so, which is why i posed the question i did.

Many thanks for the replies so far.

Regards Trev.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I recently finished my (long overdue) CPL, and really wish it had turned out as cheap as £5k ! The test alone worked out about £1200! I suppose I could have done it in about £7k, although in reality let it happen too slowly and it cost nearer £10k.

Don't underestimate the sheer workload involved in doing the CPL writtens, but on the other hand personally I really enjoyed what I got out of that, and this at-least wasn't overly expensive in money terms. I used CATS, frustratingly disorganised at times, but excellent notes and a very good pass rate. (Do spend the bit of extra money for printed notes.)

Many syndicates also like to have a member who is an instructor; everybody wins - people get instruction they need from somebody who knows the aeroplane intimately, the instructor gets flying, and everybody saves money. Plus there is a concept of a "flying club" which still exists and is run by and for its members, rather than as a commercial concern. Nothing wrong with either model so long as all concerned accept what they're within.

After all, how many paid gliding instructors are there in the UK?

In any case, the unpaid instructor still needs to earn a living, so won't be doing that much instruction compared to somebody for whom its their job.

G

[bingofuel]

but the club has a shortage (of instructors) at the moment & more people than can handle wanting air experience flights & trial flights

I find that surprising, I was under the impression there are many instructors looking for work.

[rasti121]

As far as I understand the upcoming (damned by almost all) EASA FCL.1, having passed the CPL theory test (and holding FI on your PPL) you are allowed to accept reward (including money) for FI. I always though this was the case under JAA (but never actually read it). The proposal to ditch the CPL theory requirements for FI disappeared in EASA's proposal as it stands now. Whenever it makes sense to do CPL training once you have done the theory narrows down to job opportunities (and will ;-) )

['India-Mike]

I don't see the point in me paying £5000 for a CPL that i am never going to advance from

Depends how you look at it. You'll probably spend £10k putting an FI(A) on your licence. That might be worth say 50-75 hours-worth of PPL flying to you, depending on what/where you fly. So until you achieve 50-75 hours-worth of trial lessons or check flights or whatever, you're out of pocket.

200-300 hours-worth of instruction (depending on the rate of course) will pay for your CPL.

I started down the same path like you about 5 years ago. I only wanted to put an FI(A) on my PPL to help increase utilisation of aeroplanes in which I was a shareholder, and which were suffering from lack of instructors. 5 years later? CPL+MEP+IR+FI - once that ball starts rolling it's awfully difficult to stop

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Isn't declining remuneration somewhat immoral? An employer might prioritise use of an individual whom he doesn't have to pay.

No such concept. If you're an employee you have to be paid NMW. So if you can't be paid you aren't an employee.

[BillieBob]

After all, how many paid gliding instructors are there in the UK?

When all the gliding clubs have to become Approved Training Organisations and all the instructors have to pay for their instructor certificates, that may all change! Welcome to the brave new world of EASA.

[Whopity]

Isn't declining remuneration somewhat immoral?

And incredibly French! French Aeroclubs are recreational members clubs where instructors draw no salary and put something back into aviation.

[mad_jock]

I don't get payed when I instruct or when I supervise a restricted instructor and I hold an ATPL.

[LH2]

French Aeroclubs are recreational members clubs where instructors draw no salary and put something back into aviation.

This may be letting the cat out of the box, but FYI, the way it works in France is you can either go and pay for your own FI rating (same as elsewhere), or you can negotiate with a club which will agree to finance your FI in exchange for committing to give 'x' amount of instruction hours at the club (typically 200-300) over a period of 'y' years (typically five). If you go that way (what's called the 'A list') you can do your course for about €3000, versus the €13000 it would cost you otherwise.

And btw, you do not need to have passed the CPL theory. The French have come up with their own examination which tests "knowledge at CPL level equivalent" or however it was phrased in the JARs, for the convenience of PPLs who wish to instruct. AFAIK it is only one paper that you need passing instead of 7-8 for CPL.

The two caveats are: you need to pass a pre-admission test (flying and theory if not holding CPL/ATPL), and you need to speak French. To my knowledge, there is nothing stopping a UK-based club + instructor from applying to this scheme, btw.

Google the SEFA website if you need more info. Hope this helps.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Originally Posted by M_J

I don't get payed when I instruct or when I supervise a restricted instructor and I hold an ATPL.

You and I shall be having words about both your spelling and this silly not getting paid for instructing malarky Cpt. Jock!

[BillieBob]

And btw, you do not need to have passed the CPL theory. The French have come up with their own examination which tests "knowledge at CPL level equivalent" or however it was phrased in the JARs

Actually, the 'phrasing of JARs' is absolutely clear. JAR-FCL 1.335(b) requires that an FI shall have "met the knowledge requirements for a CPL(A) as set out in Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.470", thus rendering invalid any ersatz 'equivalent' examination. The fact that the DGAC have, for purely nationalistic reasons, weaseled out of this requirement is, of course, entirely predictable. It is a sad reflection, however, on the rest of the JAA that they do not, under the terms of JAR-FCL 1.015(a)(1) refuse to accept the patently non-compliant FI ratings issued by the DGAC.

[mad_jock]

I don't take any hours off the boys that are payed.

I get to fly around an area I love for nothing, way more than I could ever afford myself.

I get to meet some great people.

I get access to aircraft without having to pay for memberships etc

I get loads of "statisfaction" out of teaching.

The instructors I supervise get supervised properly.

And I get free parking at the airport.

So I do pretty well out of it I think.

O aye my spelling has always been !!!!e. You can't see my backside for dust when anyone starts mentioning manuals needing redoing.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I'm only yanking your chain M_J!

However, I am very passionate about ALL instructors being paid for doing the job whether they are billionaires or loving every second of it. The sooner flight instruction is seen as a proper profession and one where people can earn a living out of it and therefore it can be seen as a career and not a hobby or stepping stone, then we might finally be getting somewhere in changing the appalling standard of training that is exhibited across the UK.

[LH2]

Originally Posted by BillieBob

Actually, the 'phrasing of JARs' is absolutely clear. [Then followed by long rant about ze French, etc.]

Yeah, yeah...

Il vaut mieux que tu fasses attention à ton blood pressure, mon pote!