"Clear of Cloud and In Sight of the Surface"...
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"Clear of Cloud and In Sight of the Surface"...
Whilst reading through Trevor Thom on Met in preparation for the ground exam, the following thought occurs:
I know that to remain in VMC I must be "Clear of Cloud and In Sight of the Surface", but how much of the surface must I be able to see?
E.g. if forecast is for FEW (1 to 2 oktas), then I guess this would be OK as I reckon I could see a lot of the surface if I was above that layer...
But would I be OK technically if above a SCT layer (3 to 4 oktas)?
(I assume that I would not be OK above BKN and obviously not above OVC!)
So my question is where to draw the line.
Cheers,
Andy
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"Andy sang, Andy watched, Andy waited 'til his billy boiled..." (It was written for me!)
I know that to remain in VMC I must be "Clear of Cloud and In Sight of the Surface", but how much of the surface must I be able to see?
E.g. if forecast is for FEW (1 to 2 oktas), then I guess this would be OK as I reckon I could see a lot of the surface if I was above that layer...
But would I be OK technically if above a SCT layer (3 to 4 oktas)?
(I assume that I would not be OK above BKN and obviously not above OVC!)
So my question is where to draw the line.
Cheers,
Andy
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"Andy sang, Andy watched, Andy waited 'til his billy boiled..." (It was written for me!)
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Legally, if you can see any surface at-all and are not actually in cloud (below 3000ft anyway) you are okay.
However, when applying basic common sense, I agree with A&C - if you can't get through the cloud after an engine failure with continuous sight of the surface, you've gone wrong.
G
However, when applying basic common sense, I agree with A&C - if you can't get through the cloud after an engine failure with continuous sight of the surface, you've gone wrong.
G
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Andy
A cucumber, is it longer rather being greener or greener rather being longer?
You must keep it logical and to your level of experience. The law can not cater for any eventuality, you must use common sense.
If you are above bkn and there are enough holes to see the ground you are legal (are you safe?), if at one point you can not see the ground (because the wind closed the hole in front of you) you are not legal.
Once I was flying a twin (at the time 130TT and 20 on twin) I found myself engulfed with clouds at 2000’. I was afraid to clime deeper into the cloud because I did not know about the tops. I had a rough idea were I was, there were hills near by so I was afraid to decent, at the end I have started to clime, I broke on top at 4000’ approx. I don’t know how long I was inside but it seems as I was there for years. Than I have tried to use the VORs and NDBs to locate myself, it was a joke, in other words I was fxxxed up!. Wandering over the clouds at 250ºc cockpit temp. and sweating like a dog I saw a hole in the clouds, only once before I have dived as fast as I did this time and that was during my twin test flight when the cabin became full with smoke. I found myself over unfamiliar ground, tracked a VOR and arrived home. Latter on I realised that I was lost 10 miles from the airfield.
My answer to you is, who cares about legality (to a point), use the brain and you will be fine. Admit to yourself what you know and who you are and fly accordingly. Don’t try to be a Top Gun if you are not.
Regarding the cucumber, it is greener. It can be long only to its length but it can be green to its length and its width.
A cucumber, is it longer rather being greener or greener rather being longer?
You must keep it logical and to your level of experience. The law can not cater for any eventuality, you must use common sense.
If you are above bkn and there are enough holes to see the ground you are legal (are you safe?), if at one point you can not see the ground (because the wind closed the hole in front of you) you are not legal.
Once I was flying a twin (at the time 130TT and 20 on twin) I found myself engulfed with clouds at 2000’. I was afraid to clime deeper into the cloud because I did not know about the tops. I had a rough idea were I was, there were hills near by so I was afraid to decent, at the end I have started to clime, I broke on top at 4000’ approx. I don’t know how long I was inside but it seems as I was there for years. Than I have tried to use the VORs and NDBs to locate myself, it was a joke, in other words I was fxxxed up!. Wandering over the clouds at 250ºc cockpit temp. and sweating like a dog I saw a hole in the clouds, only once before I have dived as fast as I did this time and that was during my twin test flight when the cabin became full with smoke. I found myself over unfamiliar ground, tracked a VOR and arrived home. Latter on I realised that I was lost 10 miles from the airfield.
My answer to you is, who cares about legality (to a point), use the brain and you will be fine. Admit to yourself what you know and who you are and fly accordingly. Don’t try to be a Top Gun if you are not.
Regarding the cucumber, it is greener. It can be long only to its length but it can be green to its length and its width.
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As an occasional cross channel hopper on SE VFR, I have a particular interest in answers to this question. Being very cautious by nature I usally only venture across the water when I am certain as I can be that it is CAVOK both sides of the channel and this usually means little wind and few clouds, ideal conditions for sea fog in the channel. So there I am, for maybe 15 minutes or so, unable to see the surface, but well clear of cloud and, in the air, good visibility. Strictly legal? Probably not. Sensible? Opinions please.
As I write this I am reminded of a nasty accident in the Solent some years ago when a C172 descended into fog and hit a yacht. I cannot remember why he was descending but I guess that the only reason I would descend in the above circumstances, in mid channel, would be due to engine failure. So I suppose the issues concern the risk of hitting a ship, and the viability of making a survivable landing on water in poor visibility.
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"If you keep doing what you've always done, you will keep getting what you've always got"
As I write this I am reminded of a nasty accident in the Solent some years ago when a C172 descended into fog and hit a yacht. I cannot remember why he was descending but I guess that the only reason I would descend in the above circumstances, in mid channel, would be due to engine failure. So I suppose the issues concern the risk of hitting a ship, and the viability of making a survivable landing on water in poor visibility.
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"If you keep doing what you've always done, you will keep getting what you've always got"
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It's all down to experience. As a newly qualified PPL I'd say Few, as you get a bit more time under your belt and YOU'RE HAPPY then Scattered. If you're considering going above Broken then get an IMC rating or an IR - those holes have a nasty tendency to fill in when you least want it 
CM
CM
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Aussie Andy, just a little extra point to add to the good advice you have already had. Many countries have different Visual Flight Rules, so if you plan to fly outside the UK, like pulse1, do check what they are elsewhere. I don't know what they are in France, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are different to the UK. Just for interest, in South Africa, a VFR flight may not be made above more than 3/8 cloud within a radius of 5nm of the aircraft. Seems a good idea, but not very helpful when you get a forecast of SCT!!!!! The differences between countries can be huge. For example, in the UK you need 10km vizibility for SVFR, in South Africa only 1.5km - much more handy in bad weather! You can check the differences, country by country, in the Aerad paperback guide to country differences etc. It is very inexpensive and is huge fun to read. Any idea what the transition altitude is in Nepal? Happy flying!
