Navigation - big problems, need HELP!
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Hello! Buzzfly, I'm definately still reading the topic, and taking in all that has been said, (contributions of which I'm very grateful for, because they have given me a lot to go on).
I haven't posted recently, because I'm too busy reading the replies!
Poetpilot, I agree with your last posting, but as said above, value all input on this subject.
Again, thanks a lot, guys/gals
bmus
I haven't posted recently, because I'm too busy reading the replies!
Poetpilot, I agree with your last posting, but as said above, value all input on this subject.
Again, thanks a lot, guys/gals
bmus
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beam
I've said it before but I'll repeat it as I feel people are missing an important 21st century addition to flying - rather on a par with GPS.
Pop down to PC World and get yourself a copy of MS Flight Simulator 98 (about 10 quid). Then get VFR England & Wales Scenery (22 quid). Now plot a cross country on your half million, put in some wind and set off ( I use the B737 so its on autopilot. Also at 200+knots your skills have to be a bit sharper.)
You can now do pure pilotage. Mark your position from time to time and make appropriate adjustments to heading. What you must learn is that you only need to know where you are half the time. The other half, you can be completely lost. But of course you must look cool. The examiner as always will judge you by how confident you appear. Remember he'll be lost half the time although it may not be the same half as you.
The good thing is you can practice precisely the routes you have had a problem with (providing of course they are in England or Wales).
The other good thing is you can do the same thing at night, but more of that another day.
This discussion has reminded how pleasurable a simulated cross country flight is. I might set my pc up tomorrow and go for a spin. Tell me your worst route and I'll see how difficult it is for me.
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: twistedenginestarter ]</p>
I've said it before but I'll repeat it as I feel people are missing an important 21st century addition to flying - rather on a par with GPS.
Pop down to PC World and get yourself a copy of MS Flight Simulator 98 (about 10 quid). Then get VFR England & Wales Scenery (22 quid). Now plot a cross country on your half million, put in some wind and set off ( I use the B737 so its on autopilot. Also at 200+knots your skills have to be a bit sharper.)
You can now do pure pilotage. Mark your position from time to time and make appropriate adjustments to heading. What you must learn is that you only need to know where you are half the time. The other half, you can be completely lost. But of course you must look cool. The examiner as always will judge you by how confident you appear. Remember he'll be lost half the time although it may not be the same half as you.
The good thing is you can practice precisely the routes you have had a problem with (providing of course they are in England or Wales).
The other good thing is you can do the same thing at night, but more of that another day.
This discussion has reminded how pleasurable a simulated cross country flight is. I might set my pc up tomorrow and go for a spin. Tell me your worst route and I'll see how difficult it is for me.
[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: twistedenginestarter ]</p>
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Twistedenginestarter
Sounds like a brilliant idea to me, but which PC World do you go to? I haven't been able to find a copy of MS flight simulator 98 for under £50 - where do you go to get it for 10 quid?
How accurate is the VFR England and Wales scenery? are airfield parameters, controlled airspace, low level corridors, VORs etc.. also featured on this add-on?
Be very interested to hear, because if they are, I'm probably going to go out and buy it!
cheers
ariel
Sounds like a brilliant idea to me, but which PC World do you go to? I haven't been able to find a copy of MS flight simulator 98 for under £50 - where do you go to get it for 10 quid?
How accurate is the VFR England and Wales scenery? are airfield parameters, controlled airspace, low level corridors, VORs etc.. also featured on this add-on?
Be very interested to hear, because if they are, I'm probably going to go out and buy it!
cheers
ariel
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I have recently seen MSFS 98 in a pack with something else - maybe Golf. You need 98 because the scenery won't work with anything later. I am not aware of any other product for the UK that provides continuous topographical coverage.
I believe you can still get the scenery. Perhaps you need to order it from <a href="http://www.vfrscenery.com" target="_blank">VFR Scenery</a>
It is rather similar to the in-built scenery but has accurate roads, railways, rivers, conurbations etc whereas the standard thing is only populated to any extent in certain places eg around London. It has lots of little airfields.
Fly along the coast and you get beaches and breaking waves. Go down to Lands End and you'll go over the China Clay quarries and so on.
The above site has downloadable lists of radio aids.
Naturally it has controlled airspace but of course, as in real life, it is just the colour of normal air...
I believe you can still get the scenery. Perhaps you need to order it from <a href="http://www.vfrscenery.com" target="_blank">VFR Scenery</a>
It is rather similar to the in-built scenery but has accurate roads, railways, rivers, conurbations etc whereas the standard thing is only populated to any extent in certain places eg around London. It has lots of little airfields.
Fly along the coast and you get beaches and breaking waves. Go down to Lands End and you'll go over the China Clay quarries and so on.
The above site has downloadable lists of radio aids.
Naturally it has controlled airspace but of course, as in real life, it is just the colour of normal air...
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Mrs Halliday had a directional problem when she was learning to fly. She somehow got it into her head that the nose of the aircraft always pointed North. This was at the basic nav ex stage when someone else was teaching her. Apparently it took careful questioning and some deduction to fathom the cause of her random wanderings. I launched her on her qualifying x-cty and confess I made a few phone calls around the country following her progress.
I`d never heard of SCA til this thread, not surprising when I haven`t instructed for aeons, but agree its quite elegant. Its main commendation over TE/CA to me is that it gets you back on track fairly quickly. You just can`t afford to be off track 2.5 miles in the South of England - not for long anyway. Merrily closing back to your next waypoint becomes very academic if you fly through a couple of the everyday hazards you`ve concientiously marked on your map.
In our first Dak company, Bill and I would jeer a bit if we caught each other drawing lines on maps. That`s like the Russian habit of colouring in airways on Jepps. Nowadays whenever I`m out and about VFR at 80kt or so I set off with MDR then do whatever is necessary - and I wouldn`t exclude track crawling.
There are some good ideas on this thread. Just go and practice.
GH
I`d never heard of SCA til this thread, not surprising when I haven`t instructed for aeons, but agree its quite elegant. Its main commendation over TE/CA to me is that it gets you back on track fairly quickly. You just can`t afford to be off track 2.5 miles in the South of England - not for long anyway. Merrily closing back to your next waypoint becomes very academic if you fly through a couple of the everyday hazards you`ve concientiously marked on your map.
In our first Dak company, Bill and I would jeer a bit if we caught each other drawing lines on maps. That`s like the Russian habit of colouring in airways on Jepps. Nowadays whenever I`m out and about VFR at 80kt or so I set off with MDR then do whatever is necessary - and I wouldn`t exclude track crawling.
There are some good ideas on this thread. Just go and practice.
GH
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Twistedenginestarter - Thanks very much for that website address, brilliant, I've just ordered it now, (after a futile attempt trying to find it today in Chester).
Much appreciated <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
ariel
Much appreciated <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
ariel
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Pages of advice, but I have found your problem a common one amongst students nearing the completion of their PPL. Many times I had a student with the same problem as you. Most of the time, the reason was that the student would have his lap, the rear seat and any other flat surface of the aircraft covered with charts, plogs, frequency books etc. etc. This would be all very good preparation, but as the student was being trained not only to pass the exam, but also to fly solo in the real world it was a little unrealistic. I found that all this wonderful preparation would have the student like a one-armed paper hangar just trying to fill the boxes in, as a result the heading and altitude keeping were quite often abysmal. My solution for students, if this was the case, was to simply take all this wonderfully preparation navigation documentation and throw it in the rear of the aircraft, give him the map only, show him where he was and say OK take me to this point or to this airfield. Suddenly his head was out of the cockpit and looking at the ground and relating the map and terrain information. Also, their heading and altitude keeping improved.
Sorry it's so long winded, but get the eyes outside, pick a point to fly to maintain your heading and a place on the windscreen to place the horizon to maintain your altitude look at the world outside, relax and ENJOY it.
Sorry it's so long winded, but get the eyes outside, pick a point to fly to maintain your heading and a place on the windscreen to place the horizon to maintain your altitude look at the world outside, relax and ENJOY it.
Gary, you've grasped the main advantage of the SCA technique instantly - it gets you back onto your prepared track quicker!. Hope that you have a go with it!
I can certainly believe that old Dodds used to banter you if he saw you drawing lines on your map! Is he still doing dodgy deals over in Jersy?
I can certainly believe that old Dodds used to banter you if he saw you drawing lines on your map! Is he still doing dodgy deals over in Jersy?
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To return to the original post. ."... I've 'developed' a problem where I just can't seem to 'line up' the map and the ground."
Nobody has really addressed this have they?
Maybe BMUS needs to be more explicit about the problem. Are you trying to identify the ground from the (expected) map position, or are you trying to find where on the map you are from the ground locations?
I suspect the following scenario.... .You take off, fly for a bit, look at the ground. It doesn't look "exactly" as you think it should, from the map, but you figure you can't be so far off track in such a short time. You fly on bit more, expecting to pick up something more obvious in a short while. Look at the ground again, ... still cant indetify anything obvious. Repeat this for 10 or 15 minutes, now you don't know where you are, and think you're lost.
Could this be what's happening?
If so, the problem would seem to be how to interpret what you see on the ground with where you are expecting to be, on the map. If you are oveflying an area without much distinguishing landmarks, that's obviously what can happen. It's important to choose "landmarks" on your track which are easy to identify, regardless of the "6-minute rule". Fly the heading as accurately as possible and keep track of your timing and start looking for the landmarks a few minutes before your target time. If you are a little off-track, it could be either side of the aircraft.
Its important to pick landmarks will be easily identifiable. . .Large sprawling towns are not so good, if they are merging with one another. Motorways are good - very distinctive, when crossing at right angles - the shape of the motorway and nearby intersections should help you to align yourself. You'll certainly get a good time check from this.
Isolated masts, especially if lit should stand out very well. So should lakes, as long as they are not grouped too closley together (although the grouping might be distinctive). Smaller towns surrounded by open land stand out a mile, especially with a distinctive roadway or railway pattern leading in and out.
Perhaps others have suggestions of what is a good landmark?
I assume you are orienting your map with the direction of flight?
Nobody has really addressed this have they?
Maybe BMUS needs to be more explicit about the problem. Are you trying to identify the ground from the (expected) map position, or are you trying to find where on the map you are from the ground locations?
I suspect the following scenario.... .You take off, fly for a bit, look at the ground. It doesn't look "exactly" as you think it should, from the map, but you figure you can't be so far off track in such a short time. You fly on bit more, expecting to pick up something more obvious in a short while. Look at the ground again, ... still cant indetify anything obvious. Repeat this for 10 or 15 minutes, now you don't know where you are, and think you're lost.
Could this be what's happening?
If so, the problem would seem to be how to interpret what you see on the ground with where you are expecting to be, on the map. If you are oveflying an area without much distinguishing landmarks, that's obviously what can happen. It's important to choose "landmarks" on your track which are easy to identify, regardless of the "6-minute rule". Fly the heading as accurately as possible and keep track of your timing and start looking for the landmarks a few minutes before your target time. If you are a little off-track, it could be either side of the aircraft.
Its important to pick landmarks will be easily identifiable. . .Large sprawling towns are not so good, if they are merging with one another. Motorways are good - very distinctive, when crossing at right angles - the shape of the motorway and nearby intersections should help you to align yourself. You'll certainly get a good time check from this.
Isolated masts, especially if lit should stand out very well. So should lakes, as long as they are not grouped too closley together (although the grouping might be distinctive). Smaller towns surrounded by open land stand out a mile, especially with a distinctive roadway or railway pattern leading in and out.
Perhaps others have suggestions of what is a good landmark?
I assume you are orienting your map with the direction of flight?
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GroundBound - have you been reading my mind?. The scenario you describe could virtually be me! Some simple, but useful advice given there, thanks.
HOWEVER, I wasn't always like this, (honestly!). During my navex's, I never seemed to have a problem orientating myself, it just seemed to 'develop' when I got to the stage of the QXC, (or two, soon to be three in my case). Why I have developed this problem I don't know, but I suspect it may be psychological, or perhaps, (due to not getting lost earlier) initial complacency that has now turned into a problem.
Anyway, as I replied before, lots of great advice to my original thread.
Again, thanks to everyone for their time in contributing
bmus (got to go - Star Trek is on the telly!)...
HOWEVER, I wasn't always like this, (honestly!). During my navex's, I never seemed to have a problem orientating myself, it just seemed to 'develop' when I got to the stage of the QXC, (or two, soon to be three in my case). Why I have developed this problem I don't know, but I suspect it may be psychological, or perhaps, (due to not getting lost earlier) initial complacency that has now turned into a problem.
Anyway, as I replied before, lots of great advice to my original thread.
Again, thanks to everyone for their time in contributing
bmus (got to go - Star Trek is on the telly!)...
