Navigation - big problems, need HELP!
beammeupscottie - I regret to say that there is some utter cr@p being spouted on this thread. Firstly, if you attempt to navigate by the map-reading technique advised by Ivan, you will definitely fail the en-route section of the JAR/FCL PPL Skill Test as this requires that a rigorous navigation tchnique is used.
Secondly, remember to Keep it Simple, Stupid! Navigation is NOT difficult, you just need self-discipline. If you remember to plan accurately, fly accurately and to think ahead, it all becomes very easy. Don't over complicate matters by bug gering about with a whole bunch of radio frequencies, don't talk to the outside world unless you need to, have some simple ETA and track checks pre-planned - look out and relax. DO NOT OVER MAP-READ!!
I'm e-mailing you a Word 97 document about how I require visual navigation to be taught at my Club - hope it helps.
Secondly, remember to Keep it Simple, Stupid! Navigation is NOT difficult, you just need self-discipline. If you remember to plan accurately, fly accurately and to think ahead, it all becomes very easy. Don't over complicate matters by bug gering about with a whole bunch of radio frequencies, don't talk to the outside world unless you need to, have some simple ETA and track checks pre-planned - look out and relax. DO NOT OVER MAP-READ!!
I'm e-mailing you a Word 97 document about how I require visual navigation to be taught at my Club - hope it helps.
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A big thank you to all who have replied to my thread. I'm extremely glad that I posted it, because I was on the verge of giving up flying.
Your replies have really boosted my <very> 'shot at' confidence by means of me giving it another go.
Some brilliant advice and tips here - all of which I've printed out to re-read and try to absorb!
Thanks again
bmus
Your replies have really boosted my <very> 'shot at' confidence by means of me giving it another go.
Some brilliant advice and tips here - all of which I've printed out to re-read and try to absorb!
Thanks again
bmus
BEagle, amongst others, posted some excellent advice on Standard Closing Angle techniques. I can't get the search funcion to work right now but someone else might have the url (if the page still exists) or someone more eloquent may wish to enlighten us.
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The easiest way to do a heading change to get back on track is by looking at your track error (using the drift lines from start of track) and your closing angle (from end of track) and just add them together. the angles are done by eyeball, NOT messing about trying to do 1:60 rule and even an overworked brain should be able to see this and then add two fairly low numbers together. Trying to do it by proportions, which is the other way of doing it, works just as well,but you need much more spare brain capacity.
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just remember scottie,
after a certain amount of time, you have flown a specific distance.
You have to fly 5 DEGREES off your intended course for 60 MILES to be 5 MILES on either side of your intended fix. If you cant see your fix 5 miles away, your fix isnt big enough.
and at 120 kts, it will take you HALF AN HOUR...!! If you fly 5 degrees off course for 30 MINUTES, sorry, but you dont deserve your licence.
dude, when you fly in the outback of Oz, your flying 1 hour between towns, looking at nothing but dry ground.
believe in your ability to fly well, fly your heading, and know your groundspeed, and I guarantee you will never be more than 2 miles off track. EVER.
makes navigating much easier...
after a certain amount of time, you have flown a specific distance.
You have to fly 5 DEGREES off your intended course for 60 MILES to be 5 MILES on either side of your intended fix. If you cant see your fix 5 miles away, your fix isnt big enough.
and at 120 kts, it will take you HALF AN HOUR...!! If you fly 5 degrees off course for 30 MINUTES, sorry, but you dont deserve your licence.
dude, when you fly in the outback of Oz, your flying 1 hour between towns, looking at nothing but dry ground.
believe in your ability to fly well, fly your heading, and know your groundspeed, and I guarantee you will never be more than 2 miles off track. EVER.
makes navigating much easier...
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Beagle, any chance of a copy of your word document? Have read Trevor Thom, passed all the exams and even managed to remain aware of my postion on all my navexes (so far). However, one can never stop learning.
PS. Didn't an SR71 driver once say that a pilot has never been really lost until he has done it at Mach 3?
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: Whipping Boy's SATCO ]</p>
PS. Didn't an SR71 driver once say that a pilot has never been really lost until he has done it at Mach 3?
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: Whipping Boy's SATCO ]</p>
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Beammeup,
What scale map are you using?
When I started DR nav, my instructor insisted I use a 1/2 mill.map, which I detested as it didn't show enough detail. When I got my licence, I did all my nav. using a 1/4 mill.
Now, 3 years later, I'm begining to realise that he was right. The 1/4 mill shows too much detail and its easy to get confused. The 1/4 mill is great for showing passenger where they are, but if all you can see from the air is towns and larger roads, then use a map that only shows them.
Comments??
What scale map are you using?
When I started DR nav, my instructor insisted I use a 1/2 mill.map, which I detested as it didn't show enough detail. When I got my licence, I did all my nav. using a 1/4 mill.
Now, 3 years later, I'm begining to realise that he was right. The 1/4 mill shows too much detail and its easy to get confused. The 1/4 mill is great for showing passenger where they are, but if all you can see from the air is towns and larger roads, then use a map that only shows them.
Comments??
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#1, don't give up and don't get discouraged. We've all had problems in one area or another and I imagine that lots of us have thought we had the worlds record in hours spent on those problems.
Have you ever thought of trying your X-county a little at a time. First time just fly out a little way, then back. Next time go a little further and back. As you succeed in each smaller trip your confidence and skill will grow until you can't wait to try the "main event" again! Pick LARGE landmarks that you can see a long way off, then smaller ones in between, and I, for one, HAVE been known to choose landmarks just a few miles apart when they were something that I knew would help me along. I fly in Upstate, New York where everything looks the same, woods and mountains and 100's of little lakes that all look alike. I utilize every instrument in the plane, VOR, 2 if I have them, and I really like the ADF. But you can get there with only a map if you plan ahead and don't panic when things don't look right.
I never thought I'd get my PPL and now I'm working on my Commercial. If it takes me longer than most, I'm ok with that. I'm having fun and always learning something new, and that's what counts. DON'T GIVE UP, and remember to HAVE FUN!!!! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Have you ever thought of trying your X-county a little at a time. First time just fly out a little way, then back. Next time go a little further and back. As you succeed in each smaller trip your confidence and skill will grow until you can't wait to try the "main event" again! Pick LARGE landmarks that you can see a long way off, then smaller ones in between, and I, for one, HAVE been known to choose landmarks just a few miles apart when they were something that I knew would help me along. I fly in Upstate, New York where everything looks the same, woods and mountains and 100's of little lakes that all look alike. I utilize every instrument in the plane, VOR, 2 if I have them, and I really like the ADF. But you can get there with only a map if you plan ahead and don't panic when things don't look right.
I never thought I'd get my PPL and now I'm working on my Commercial. If it takes me longer than most, I'm ok with that. I'm having fun and always learning something new, and that's what counts. DON'T GIVE UP, and remember to HAVE FUN!!!! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Don't want to sound too smug (I'm not and I have got lost so I'm never complacent) but I find VFR nav relatively easy...the reason? I love maps. As a kid I used to study maps (sad little git that I was) and when it came to flying I found I had a fair knowledge of where places were in relation to each other.
I'm not advocating any methods or fancy stuff - they've all been discussed - except to say that trying remember number rules and maths whilst bumbling around ain't easy, so somehow you have to minimise that stuff. Planning your flight - yes, definitely, but all that's been discussed already.
But away from the specific flights, study your maps until you know them like a friend. Start to get familiar with the context of things on your x/c route and area. And I mean things around your track, not just on your track.
Start with the big features first, (terrain, coastline, large water features, cities) but get an idea of where railways, rivers, roads run to & from. When you see airfields in "your" area, get the VFR guide out and look at the layouts. When you see towns, go the road atlas and look at the general shape and spread of the roads.
Do this BEFORE you start looking at the zones, beacons & other aero bits n bobs. Bring that in as you set up your flight plan (i.e. what the zones are, what the VFR rules are for them, frequencies, heights, where do I make my initial call, etc.)
I've found the above helps me keep looking out rather than poring over the map, which in turn means I'm not checking position every 2 mins - rather I have major position checks every 1/4 of the leg, but in reality the "real" map almost unfolds before me (because I know that point X is roughly 10 miles SW of point Y & is joined by a road with a canal running by it, and so on). It's not just the characteristics of a particular point - it's the flow of information and relationship of points that you have to conquer.
...and plan "escape plans" for if/when you get lost. i.e. on leg 2, if I become lost, I will fly due West (e.g. an easy heading) until I get to the motorway (because it's N-S and it'll take me to X & its away from zones & from there I will get back on track by flying 045, etc etc - must reason this out obviously).
I've not flown the Oz deserts, but I have flown LA to Las Vegas. That required rigorous planning & monitoring, & I wasnt so familiar with the map (though I did study it for days before) but was aided by VORs as backup (& some reasonable line features to follow). Interestingly that a/c had an autopilot which we set to track the VOR, but it didnt work correctly, & visual position fixing won the day.
[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: poetpilot ]
[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: poetpilot ]</p>
I'm not advocating any methods or fancy stuff - they've all been discussed - except to say that trying remember number rules and maths whilst bumbling around ain't easy, so somehow you have to minimise that stuff. Planning your flight - yes, definitely, but all that's been discussed already.
But away from the specific flights, study your maps until you know them like a friend. Start to get familiar with the context of things on your x/c route and area. And I mean things around your track, not just on your track.
Start with the big features first, (terrain, coastline, large water features, cities) but get an idea of where railways, rivers, roads run to & from. When you see airfields in "your" area, get the VFR guide out and look at the layouts. When you see towns, go the road atlas and look at the general shape and spread of the roads.
Do this BEFORE you start looking at the zones, beacons & other aero bits n bobs. Bring that in as you set up your flight plan (i.e. what the zones are, what the VFR rules are for them, frequencies, heights, where do I make my initial call, etc.)
I've found the above helps me keep looking out rather than poring over the map, which in turn means I'm not checking position every 2 mins - rather I have major position checks every 1/4 of the leg, but in reality the "real" map almost unfolds before me (because I know that point X is roughly 10 miles SW of point Y & is joined by a road with a canal running by it, and so on). It's not just the characteristics of a particular point - it's the flow of information and relationship of points that you have to conquer.
...and plan "escape plans" for if/when you get lost. i.e. on leg 2, if I become lost, I will fly due West (e.g. an easy heading) until I get to the motorway (because it's N-S and it'll take me to X & its away from zones & from there I will get back on track by flying 045, etc etc - must reason this out obviously).
I've not flown the Oz deserts, but I have flown LA to Las Vegas. That required rigorous planning & monitoring, & I wasnt so familiar with the map (though I did study it for days before) but was aided by VORs as backup (& some reasonable line features to follow). Interestingly that a/c had an autopilot which we set to track the VOR, but it didnt work correctly, & visual position fixing won the day.
[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: poetpilot ]
[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: poetpilot ]</p>
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Some good and some not so good advice here. As far as I can see, no one has yet mentioned the easiest way I now of getting back on track, although that may be because many assume that you have already tried it.
Assume first that you are flying a relatively short leg (say 60 nm). Forget the problem of adding up track error and closing angles. Draw a 10 degree drift line BACK FROM YOUR DESTINATION. Now divide the leg into halves or thirds or quarters as the good landmarks dictate.
Once airborne, compare your actual position at one of these divisions with your planned position. Transfer that onto your map and estimate the number of degrees off track by comparing with your 10 degree drift line. Let's say that by the half way point you estimate you are 5 degrees right of track. All you need to do to arrive at destination is invert the fraction and apply that to the calculated error. In this case you are 1/2 way along so you invert the fraction making it 2/1 x 5 degrees = 10 degrees. Therefore you need to alter heading 10 degrees left to arrive at destination.
It works perfectly for any point along the track: 1/3 gone becomes 3/1 x error,
2/3 gone becomes 3/2 x error
1/4 gone becomes 4/1 x error
etc.
This is logical, because if you think about it if you are 5 degrees off after only 1/4 of the total distance you have a large error so you will need a large correction. Conversely if you are 5 degrees off after 3/4 gone you will only need a small correction.
For longer legs you can divide them into half, draw 10 degree error lines from the half way point AND the destination and use the above method to get back on track by the half way point and then treat the second half in the same way. This stops you wandering a long way off in the first half when CAS might be a concern.
Cannot agree more that the 2-3 mile waypoint system is a recipe for disaster. That's not navigation, it's map crawling, and if you are spending that much time looking at the ground and the map you can't be doing much in the way of looking out for other aircraft.
Assume first that you are flying a relatively short leg (say 60 nm). Forget the problem of adding up track error and closing angles. Draw a 10 degree drift line BACK FROM YOUR DESTINATION. Now divide the leg into halves or thirds or quarters as the good landmarks dictate.
Once airborne, compare your actual position at one of these divisions with your planned position. Transfer that onto your map and estimate the number of degrees off track by comparing with your 10 degree drift line. Let's say that by the half way point you estimate you are 5 degrees right of track. All you need to do to arrive at destination is invert the fraction and apply that to the calculated error. In this case you are 1/2 way along so you invert the fraction making it 2/1 x 5 degrees = 10 degrees. Therefore you need to alter heading 10 degrees left to arrive at destination.
It works perfectly for any point along the track: 1/3 gone becomes 3/1 x error,
2/3 gone becomes 3/2 x error
1/4 gone becomes 4/1 x error
etc.
This is logical, because if you think about it if you are 5 degrees off after only 1/4 of the total distance you have a large error so you will need a large correction. Conversely if you are 5 degrees off after 3/4 gone you will only need a small correction.
For longer legs you can divide them into half, draw 10 degree error lines from the half way point AND the destination and use the above method to get back on track by the half way point and then treat the second half in the same way. This stops you wandering a long way off in the first half when CAS might be a concern.
Cannot agree more that the 2-3 mile waypoint system is a recipe for disaster. That's not navigation, it's map crawling, and if you are spending that much time looking at the ground and the map you can't be doing much in the way of looking out for other aircraft.
As someone who has always been slightly navigationally challenged, this thread has been extremely helpful. Right from BUS’s original post I wondered if his problem might be similar to mine.
During my training I had no problems when I was flying with an instructor. Even when given a diversion during my NFT, I thought I was lost so stuck to my hastily made plan until my ETA at an obscure diversion. Then I announced confidently that I was there. As I passed the test I assume that I was there or, maybe, he wasn’t too sure either.
Again, flying across the channel, I have no problems because there is no point in doing anything but follow the plan until fixing my position when I can see the coast. Up to now this has always worked.
It is when I am flying over land, especially close to controlled airspace or danger areas, that I start to worry if I cannot immediately recognise a landmark which means that I tend to revert to “map crawling” as eyeinthesky puts it. The plan gets forgotten and discipline goes out the window.
I have to keep telling myself that the system works and, provided I fly accurately and have planned properly, I cannot fail to reach a close proximity to my next fix when I expect to do so.
So thanks everyone for driving this message home. As I am currently flying without a GPS or ADF, this quite opportune.
During my training I had no problems when I was flying with an instructor. Even when given a diversion during my NFT, I thought I was lost so stuck to my hastily made plan until my ETA at an obscure diversion. Then I announced confidently that I was there. As I passed the test I assume that I was there or, maybe, he wasn’t too sure either.
Again, flying across the channel, I have no problems because there is no point in doing anything but follow the plan until fixing my position when I can see the coast. Up to now this has always worked.
It is when I am flying over land, especially close to controlled airspace or danger areas, that I start to worry if I cannot immediately recognise a landmark which means that I tend to revert to “map crawling” as eyeinthesky puts it. The plan gets forgotten and discipline goes out the window.
I have to keep telling myself that the system works and, provided I fly accurately and have planned properly, I cannot fail to reach a close proximity to my next fix when I expect to do so.
So thanks everyone for driving this message home. As I am currently flying without a GPS or ADF, this quite opportune.
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I used the inverse fraction rule described by eyeinthesky during my skill test last year. Worked a treat. I found I was 4 degrees off after 1/3 distance. Corrected by 12 degrees (3/1 times 4), re-calculated my ETA and kept going. Its a bit unnerving as you never regain track until your waypoint but it does work.
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Still more maths than you need, as stated before,
Track error + closing angle = heading change.
No remembering which way round the proportions go, and only adding rather than trying to multiply fractions! <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Track error + closing angle = heading change.
No remembering which way round the proportions go, and only adding rather than trying to multiply fractions! <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Still some very old-fashioned ideas on here, I'm afraid. TE+CA??, New Track reference??? Way out of date. But either of those methods are infinitely preferable to over map-reading and feature crawling!
Try SCA - it's easier, gets you back onto track quicker and requires no in-flight mathematics.
Trouble is that most FTO fossils just won't teach it to novice FI(R)s because they don't understand it and it doesn't appear in the usual textbooks. The military has been teaching it for years now - and it's a doddle!
Try SCA - it's easier, gets you back onto track quicker and requires no in-flight mathematics.
Trouble is that most FTO fossils just won't teach it to novice FI(R)s because they don't understand it and it doesn't appear in the usual textbooks. The military has been teaching it for years now - and it's a doddle!
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Gees guys. Remember we are flying VFR here. There is way too much maths getting involved in this. VFR is about using the map to ID ground features and vice versa. If people are struggling with nav, loading them up with more maths to do in the cockpit and get flustered with ain't going to help them.
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bow 5: Granted, but if you really think multiplying an error of say 3 degrees by 2 is too difficult then I wonder whether you should really be flying a plane. How do you work out whether you are within crosswind limits for landing without a little mental maths?