R/T
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R/T
I would like to start this thread as an extension to the thread This guy could be in YOUR airspace! .
Although any request of mine for RIS from Luton, Stanstead, Thames and Southend have never been refused I know that getting something more than FIS is unusual.
FIS is a non-radar service. All we are told is the QNH and that it is very busy in the South-East and to keep a very good look out. Thank you very much, I do it anyway.
As a result, while in the open FIR I have stopped making any R.T calls but do change frequencies to local aerodromes and keep listening. Most of them are A.G or F.I.S and can not help much other than telling about their local QNH and traffic.
I feel that talking to the world will not help.
What are your thoughts about it?
Although any request of mine for RIS from Luton, Stanstead, Thames and Southend have never been refused I know that getting something more than FIS is unusual.
FIS is a non-radar service. All we are told is the QNH and that it is very busy in the South-East and to keep a very good look out. Thank you very much, I do it anyway.
As a result, while in the open FIR I have stopped making any R.T calls but do change frequencies to local aerodromes and keep listening. Most of them are A.G or F.I.S and can not help much other than telling about their local QNH and traffic.
I feel that talking to the world will not help.
What are your thoughts about it?
Guest
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AC-DC, I have had the same thoughts - eg when tracking towards Lydd for a cross channel why talk to Lond Info - just listen out and get a picture of other traffic. Then I thought that if everyone else did the same then there would be no info at all on other traffic. So all in all best to put a call in - you never know when another aircraft hearing you may find it of use in knowing your position / altitude. Assumes of course you can get a word in edgeways. Always talk to LI whilst over the wet stuff for obvious reasons....
A2
A2
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Whilst I totally understand the feeling of "why bother?" in talking to London Information much of the time, I feel it is certainly a good plan to call if your flight is taking you over inhospitable terrain or long stretches of water. Whilst they may not give you much information for 99.99% of your flights, on the day that everything goes suddenly quiet you'll be glad that somebody has some up-to-date information of where to look for you when all you have time for is "MAYDAY, GABCD" before you start swimming!!!
Fly safe!!!
Fly safe!!!
Joined: Jan 1999
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From: north of barlu
The only sunny day i could get a word in edgeways on london info was when i was acting as relay for a low flying SAR chopper and even then it was hard to shut some people up.
It is a good service but over used by people who do not understand its limitations.
It is a good service but over used by people who do not understand its limitations.
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London Info and x-channel - very good for a weather update for LFAT and LFAC whilst en-route if you take a while to get as far as Kent. Also, 'whilst over water' before the FIR boundary, although Manston or Lydd can be quieter if you just need someone to hear a mayday and get things moving.
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Hi,
Why don't we have a common channel for making "blind-calls" - a common practice elsewhere, such as in Canada (reference a comment on another thread) and back in Australia in the MBZ's and certain "area" frequencies.
Under these arrangements, people call their position, heading, intentions etc. as they pass overhead navaids etc. and if others want clarification, they contact the aircraft concerned direct without wasting a controller's time.
This would leave FIS type channels clear for obtaining information required, and reduce controller workload. Meanwhile, everyones situational awareness would be greatly enhanced, I believe.
What do people think?
Andy
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"Andy sang, Andy watched, Andy waited 'til his billy boiled..." (It was written for me!)
Why don't we have a common channel for making "blind-calls" - a common practice elsewhere, such as in Canada (reference a comment on another thread) and back in Australia in the MBZ's and certain "area" frequencies.
Under these arrangements, people call their position, heading, intentions etc. as they pass overhead navaids etc. and if others want clarification, they contact the aircraft concerned direct without wasting a controller's time.
This would leave FIS type channels clear for obtaining information required, and reduce controller workload. Meanwhile, everyones situational awareness would be greatly enhanced, I believe.
What do people think?
Andy
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"Andy sang, Andy watched, Andy waited 'til his billy boiled..." (It was written for me!)
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AC-DC.....
You must bother!!! As said, if no-one were to bother we would be in a pretty sorry state.
It's like giving a LARS service to the GA fraternity. Sometimes, it is referred to as a "Callsign Collection Service".
However, it is still better than nowt - and when a loved one is chasing your overdue time remember that the RT calls made are recorded and Flight Progress Strips kept for 30 days.
You must bother!!! As said, if no-one were to bother we would be in a pretty sorry state.
It's like giving a LARS service to the GA fraternity. Sometimes, it is referred to as a "Callsign Collection Service".
However, it is still better than nowt - and when a loved one is chasing your overdue time remember that the RT calls made are recorded and Flight Progress Strips kept for 30 days.
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I think the crux of the matter here is that London Info, on a busy day, is woefully inadequate for the type of service the GA community is expecting of it. Things have to go one of two ways.
1) The country is split into 3/4 regions, 1 of which should encompass the south coast as far as the Solent and the respective part of the channel to provide the FIS and alerting service that it is there for. No reason why these shouldn't be bandboxed during quiet periods or seasons, but in the height of summer split.
2) Disband it in it's present guise and have two frequencies. One would be a purely INFORMATION frequency to enable to get weather and possibly airways joining clearances - NOT traffic information. The second would be a self announce unicom so that VFR traffic can pass position reports and separate itself (which is the whole idea behind VFR I was taught). If you need to scream Mayday then 121.5 - it doesn't take that long to dial it up and if you're over the channel you'd be high enough to have sufficient time to do it.
I've crossed the Channel and dialled up London Info on a Bank Holiday Monday. It was probably the most pointless exercise I've ever committed due to the amount of people using it over the area it covers, and this is compounded by the fact that people pass the standard contact message with estimates in the hope that they will get adequate traffic information - on the whole it isn't going to happen as it's physically impossible.
Time for a rethink I would say
CM
1) The country is split into 3/4 regions, 1 of which should encompass the south coast as far as the Solent and the respective part of the channel to provide the FIS and alerting service that it is there for. No reason why these shouldn't be bandboxed during quiet periods or seasons, but in the height of summer split.
2) Disband it in it's present guise and have two frequencies. One would be a purely INFORMATION frequency to enable to get weather and possibly airways joining clearances - NOT traffic information. The second would be a self announce unicom so that VFR traffic can pass position reports and separate itself (which is the whole idea behind VFR I was taught). If you need to scream Mayday then 121.5 - it doesn't take that long to dial it up and if you're over the channel you'd be high enough to have sufficient time to do it.
I've crossed the Channel and dialled up London Info on a Bank Holiday Monday. It was probably the most pointless exercise I've ever committed due to the amount of people using it over the area it covers, and this is compounded by the fact that people pass the standard contact message with estimates in the hope that they will get adequate traffic information - on the whole it isn't going to happen as it's physically impossible.
Time for a rethink I would say
CM
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Proposal number 2 above sounds ideal to me, and potentially most attractive to NATS as it would require least cost on their part (and avoid us being asked to pay!)
How should we go about lobbying for this? As members of AOPA, perhaps we should start there? Maybe we should ask for comment on the ATC forum? As a person relatively new to GA in the UK I'd like to know what people think is the right lobbying approach, rather than just leave it as a bit of a whinge on PPRUNE!
Andy :-)
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"Andy sang, Andy watched, Andy waited 'til his billy boiled..." (It was written for me!)
[This message has been edited by Aussie Andy (edited 01 February 2001).]
How should we go about lobbying for this? As members of AOPA, perhaps we should start there? Maybe we should ask for comment on the ATC forum? As a person relatively new to GA in the UK I'd like to know what people think is the right lobbying approach, rather than just leave it as a bit of a whinge on PPRUNE!
Andy :-)
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"Andy sang, Andy watched, Andy waited 'til his billy boiled..." (It was written for me!)
[This message has been edited by Aussie Andy (edited 01 February 2001).]
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The points made about calling so everyone else has an idea of where you are and where to look if you force land/crash are good ones, as far as Chilli monsters point goes for changing to 121.5 goes, this is NOT a good idea, when things start to go wrong you need EVERYTHING on your side, your brain starts to become overloaded and changing freq. can become harder than you would believe (read your human perf. lately).
If you are already on a good freq. this not only saves switching over, but if you are short of time/brainpower and don't get all the info out the controller already has an idea of who/where you are.
If you are already on a good freq. this not only saves switching over, but if you are short of time/brainpower and don't get all the info out the controller already has an idea of who/where you are.
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Foxmoth
Going through a course that involves a lot of 'Brain overload' at the moment I know all about Human performance under stress
OK - variation to Option 2. London info MONITOR the Unicom as well as doing their job of passing weather and are available to step in in the case of an emergency - It's amazing how concentrated your attention becomes on hearing PAN or MAYDAY.
CM
Going through a course that involves a lot of 'Brain overload' at the moment I know all about Human performance under stress
OK - variation to Option 2. London info MONITOR the Unicom as well as doing their job of passing weather and are available to step in in the case of an emergency - It's amazing how concentrated your attention becomes on hearing PAN or MAYDAY.
CM
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Actually London FIR is split into three frequencies, which most of the time are deadly quiet and all worked by the same FISO. About a dozen (sunny bank holiday/weekend) days a year things go ballistic and everybody suddenly wants to go to Le Touquet. Then the frequencies are split and on FISO will work SE England, the other will have SW and N England. You still wont be able to get a word in edgeways though, so had better consider whether you feel safe flying on such a day. I you do, then good, BUT keep a VERY good lookout as you aint gonna get much of a service from anyybody. If you would prefer to fly a weekday, then you can take advantage of the (mostly military) LARS, FIS, passing aerodromes etc and they will mostly have all the time in the world for you and tell you about traffic miles away that you couldn't hit if you tried.
I always like to let someone know who I am so that if I call Mayday and my callsign someone will alrady know who I am, roughly where I am and start looking for me.
I always like to let someone know who I am so that if I call Mayday and my callsign someone will alrady know who I am, roughly where I am and start looking for me.
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When channel crossing in a S/E aircraft a number of us always have 121.5 already selected on box 2. This is a result of our long discussions of the safest options in the event of an engine failure over the channel. These discussions were prompted by a fellow pilot who used London Info for his MAYDAY and told them where he thought he was. London info does not have radar or the autotriangulation of 121.5. Although uninjured, he was dead by the time he was found.
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As a PPL and an ATCO, I can see both sides of the argument. London Information is a complete misnomer and a total waste of perfectly good frequencies. (With absolutely no disrespect intended to the good people who try very hard to provide it...is it punishment for shoplifting?.). Worried about your maday call?, leave 121.5 selected on your other box. Too many people are lulled into a false sense of security by 'Flight Information Service'. It never ceases to amaze me when pilots advise me indignantly of 'close ones' with other traffic when I'm providing them with FIS. I'm not necessarily using radar and our crystal ball is u/s. Education is the key, flying instructors should spell out the different types of Air Traffic Services and their limitations at an early stage and the Safety Sense Leaflet is good if you can find one. A visit to your local ATC unit is a good idea too. All the ATCO's at my unit are human and are generally happy to have visitors in the tower on a pre-arranged basis...especially if you bring cakes or single malts. It's really useful to see our job from the other side of the mike.
When I'm airborne, I always ask for RIS and 9 times out of 10 I get it too. Why? Not because of some ATC old boy network but because my RT is clear, concise and precise. As an ATCO, you are instinctively more inclined to provide a Radar service/zone transit if the initial call is from a good radio in standard RT phraseology.
"Er..er...Golf...Indigo..November..October..er...3 miles east, no west.. er...er..where are we Bob??....request Radar service and zone transit"...ain't gonna happen.
I thought it was great when the practical RT test was reintroduced...makes it safer for us all..and I was disappointed when AOPA etc. moaned about it. I'd even take it one step further, and require the RT test (like Air Law) before first solo. "Too much like hard work...we're only flying for fun" I hear you cry but the benefits far outweigh the workload. Nobody moans about doing the Driving Theory test before being let lose on the roads. I was already an ATCO when I started my PPL so RT was already 'in the bag'. Subsequently, I learnt loads more about actual hands on flying in my 40 hours. These days I hear people wasting their money at £85 per hour, using all their concentration to talk to me in a slightly technical language when they should be learning to fly. It still astounds me that intelligent, educated people struggle so much with RT. It really isn't difficult...learn the meanings of the standard words and phrases by heart (in the bath, driving to work etc....don't wait til you get in the aeroplane)...and memorise the list of things that need to be read back...simple as that! It is not rocket science. Incidentley, when I started my ATCO training, I had to do a written and practical RT test before I could get a Student ATC Licence.
One final point, NATS actually pays non state units to provide LARS, It's an air traffic SERVICE, of which you are the customer, get your money's worth! Even a limited RIS (due traffic) or a FIS with a squawk is better than just listening out....any ATCO worth their salt will do something when they see one of their own squawks about to attempt some airborne metalwork.
I feel much better for getting all that off my chest. Roger, over and out!
When I'm airborne, I always ask for RIS and 9 times out of 10 I get it too. Why? Not because of some ATC old boy network but because my RT is clear, concise and precise. As an ATCO, you are instinctively more inclined to provide a Radar service/zone transit if the initial call is from a good radio in standard RT phraseology.
"Er..er...Golf...Indigo..November..October..er...3 miles east, no west.. er...er..where are we Bob??....request Radar service and zone transit"...ain't gonna happen.
I thought it was great when the practical RT test was reintroduced...makes it safer for us all..and I was disappointed when AOPA etc. moaned about it. I'd even take it one step further, and require the RT test (like Air Law) before first solo. "Too much like hard work...we're only flying for fun" I hear you cry but the benefits far outweigh the workload. Nobody moans about doing the Driving Theory test before being let lose on the roads. I was already an ATCO when I started my PPL so RT was already 'in the bag'. Subsequently, I learnt loads more about actual hands on flying in my 40 hours. These days I hear people wasting their money at £85 per hour, using all their concentration to talk to me in a slightly technical language when they should be learning to fly. It still astounds me that intelligent, educated people struggle so much with RT. It really isn't difficult...learn the meanings of the standard words and phrases by heart (in the bath, driving to work etc....don't wait til you get in the aeroplane)...and memorise the list of things that need to be read back...simple as that! It is not rocket science. Incidentley, when I started my ATCO training, I had to do a written and practical RT test before I could get a Student ATC Licence.
One final point, NATS actually pays non state units to provide LARS, It's an air traffic SERVICE, of which you are the customer, get your money's worth! Even a limited RIS (due traffic) or a FIS with a squawk is better than just listening out....any ATCO worth their salt will do something when they see one of their own squawks about to attempt some airborne metalwork.
I feel much better for getting all that off my chest. Roger, over and out!
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For the very reasons you state above, at my training organisation I require that all students must pass the Communications-PPL (Theory) paper before First Solo. They must also pass the Radio Telephony (Practical) exam before they fly their 150 nm solo navigation exercise.
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I think the comments on R/T are germane. The Canadian regs require the student to have obtained a Restricted Radio Operators certificate and passed a written exam on aspects of Air Law before going solo even in the circuit.
Unfortunately the Radio Cert is a written exam also
I hear a lot of students 'freeze' the moment they use the PTT for themselves.
How is R/T taught in the UK?
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Unfortunately the Radio Cert is a written exam also
I hear a lot of students 'freeze' the moment they use the PTT for themselves. How is R/T taught in the UK?
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matspart3,
Where I fly (N of England), I always ask for FIS when outside my local class D airport environment, as that is what I learned during my PPL training from my instructors. We generally get a good level of traffic information with FIS, workload permitting. I don't ever recall hearing anyone ask for a RIS.
But we have a lot of fast miltary a/c in this area, and I sometimes worry that FIS is not a sufficient service. I have asked several instructors to spell out the difference between FIS and RIS in terms of traffic advice, but I'm not sure I ever got a clear and concise explanation. Could you clarify whether RIS would necessarily give me a better service wrt traffic proximity (both slow and fast), and whether there is any advantage asking for RIS when most if not all a/c in the FIR ask for and get FIS.
Where I fly (N of England), I always ask for FIS when outside my local class D airport environment, as that is what I learned during my PPL training from my instructors. We generally get a good level of traffic information with FIS, workload permitting. I don't ever recall hearing anyone ask for a RIS.
But we have a lot of fast miltary a/c in this area, and I sometimes worry that FIS is not a sufficient service. I have asked several instructors to spell out the difference between FIS and RIS in terms of traffic advice, but I'm not sure I ever got a clear and concise explanation. Could you clarify whether RIS would necessarily give me a better service wrt traffic proximity (both slow and fast), and whether there is any advantage asking for RIS when most if not all a/c in the FIR ask for and get FIS.