Aircraft Missing Over Cairngorms
Aircraft Missing Over Cairngorms
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According to latest news report four people were found safe after a/c, a C172, made forced landing in deep snow and bad weather at 2,000ft. Occupants, who escaped with slight injuries were found by RAF helicopter.
A/c was on route from Kidlington to Inverness.
A/c was on route from Kidlington to Inverness.
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I was very pleased to hear that everyone involved in this accident survived. Apparently the worst injury was a broken leg which I think is remarkable.
Well done to the boys and girls who were in the rescue team. My impression is that the crew carried, or the aircraft was fitted with an ELT. I heard on the local news that the location of the accident was established very quickly, thanks to a Nimrod from RAF Kinloss which apparently picked up an ELT signal and managed to pin-point the exact location in a short time period.
I think a Sea King from RAF Lossie was despatched and took the Crew and Pax to Aberdeen Royal Infirmary.
They went down a few miles south of the town of Braemar.
Very pleased that no lives were lost and that no one was seriously injured.
MG
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...For Radar identification, throw your your jumpseat rider out of the window...
Well done to the boys and girls who were in the rescue team. My impression is that the crew carried, or the aircraft was fitted with an ELT. I heard on the local news that the location of the accident was established very quickly, thanks to a Nimrod from RAF Kinloss which apparently picked up an ELT signal and managed to pin-point the exact location in a short time period.
I think a Sea King from RAF Lossie was despatched and took the Crew and Pax to Aberdeen Royal Infirmary.
They went down a few miles south of the town of Braemar.
Very pleased that no lives were lost and that no one was seriously injured.
MG
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...For Radar identification, throw your your jumpseat rider out of the window...
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It was on the TV news today. Pilot and "co-pilot" talking to press. Seems they hit a mountain whilst flying in icing conditions in a blizzard. In a C172. Pilot says he pulled back at the last minute hoping that engine wouldn't come backwards into cabin.
They walked for a mile in the blizzard with no gear, lightweight clothes, no coats, and were about to give up when the rescue team found them.
I'm glad they survived but I have a couple of questions.
What were they doing flying in the middle of winter with the possibility of bad weather, at 2000 feet in the mountains?
Why did they not have any survival equipment, even basic stuff, with them?
Why did they enter and continue in icing conditions?
Why did they not climb?
I am amazed they got out with barely a scratch, I reckon they will be pretty shaken up by the whole incident.
The investigation should be interesting.
They walked for a mile in the blizzard with no gear, lightweight clothes, no coats, and were about to give up when the rescue team found them.
I'm glad they survived but I have a couple of questions.
What were they doing flying in the middle of winter with the possibility of bad weather, at 2000 feet in the mountains?
Why did they not have any survival equipment, even basic stuff, with them?
Why did they enter and continue in icing conditions?
Why did they not climb?
I am amazed they got out with barely a scratch, I reckon they will be pretty shaken up by the whole incident.
The investigation should be interesting.
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Yes, for these four very, very, VERY lucky people, all one can say is that on this occasion, their number wasn't "UP!" As for the commander of this (ex) C172, I would say that, whatever you might do in aviation in the future, mate, don't count on luck. You've just used up your lifetime's supply in one go. (The safety altitude in that vicinity is 3600ft., the next grid towards Inverness is 5500ft. I just refuse to believe that the aircraft was flying at only 2000ft.)
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I have a serious question here.
OK, so they shouldn't have been there in the first place. But I gather weather can change very quickly in the Cairngorms, so perhaps it seemed OK at first. I read somewhere that they found themselves in cloud in icing conditions, so decided to descend.
So, to take a hypothetical scenario now, suppose you find yourself in cloud, with ice on the aircraft, above mountains. You try climbing but there's no obvious top to these clouds.
What should you do? What would any of you do? I'm just asking because I really honestly don't know.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
OK, so they shouldn't have been there in the first place. But I gather weather can change very quickly in the Cairngorms, so perhaps it seemed OK at first. I read somewhere that they found themselves in cloud in icing conditions, so decided to descend.
So, to take a hypothetical scenario now, suppose you find yourself in cloud, with ice on the aircraft, above mountains. You try climbing but there's no obvious top to these clouds.
What should you do? What would any of you do? I'm just asking because I really honestly don't know.
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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Hi Whirly,
I know what you're referring to... the inclination to press-on-itis followed by the realisation that you're totally out of your depth.
The question you pose has no answers once things have got that bad. Most C172 pilots are going to be VFR only. Even IR qualified pilots are going to find it difficult to change their flight from VFR to IFR in mid-air.
Ever tried replanning a flight in mid-air? In cloud? With three nervous friends? In your case, with a cyclic?
Prevention is the only cure here, I'm afraid.
I know what you're referring to... the inclination to press-on-itis followed by the realisation that you're totally out of your depth.
The question you pose has no answers once things have got that bad. Most C172 pilots are going to be VFR only. Even IR qualified pilots are going to find it difficult to change their flight from VFR to IFR in mid-air.
Ever tried replanning a flight in mid-air? In cloud? With three nervous friends? In your case, with a cyclic?
Prevention is the only cure here, I'm afraid.
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Whirlybird, you asked a very sensible question. My opinions are:
1. Prevention is better than cure so if you're flying near mountains in marginal conditions you certainly should be above MSA. I'm assuming that you have the MSA for each leg written down on your PLOG. You certainly should have, there is no time to look at the map and work it out if you have just gone IMC.
2. If you are below MSA and accidently go IMC then climb like your life depends on it - because it does. You can then decide if a 180 is to follow.
3. In icing conditions in something like a C172 there MAY be a safer option than 2 above, and that may be an immediate 180 degree turn without a climb. You should have mastered this manoeveur during your fixed-wing PPL (not sure if rotary wing PPL different). The reason I suggest a 180 without a climb under icing conditions is because it is likely to get you out of the cloud quicker. Indeed, a 180 plus a climb may just put you into the higher cloud which you may not be able to climb through with icing.
Like I said, prevention (and preparation) is better than cure, but we all make mistakes and the above are my best suggestions. Can anyone think of better courses of action and give the reasons?
1. Prevention is better than cure so if you're flying near mountains in marginal conditions you certainly should be above MSA. I'm assuming that you have the MSA for each leg written down on your PLOG. You certainly should have, there is no time to look at the map and work it out if you have just gone IMC.
2. If you are below MSA and accidently go IMC then climb like your life depends on it - because it does. You can then decide if a 180 is to follow.
3. In icing conditions in something like a C172 there MAY be a safer option than 2 above, and that may be an immediate 180 degree turn without a climb. You should have mastered this manoeveur during your fixed-wing PPL (not sure if rotary wing PPL different). The reason I suggest a 180 without a climb under icing conditions is because it is likely to get you out of the cloud quicker. Indeed, a 180 plus a climb may just put you into the higher cloud which you may not be able to climb through with icing.
Like I said, prevention (and preparation) is better than cure, but we all make mistakes and the above are my best suggestions. Can anyone think of better courses of action and give the reasons?
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Seems like this kind of accident cannot be prevented as long as pilots are dumb enough to do it!
Poor, or no, planning. The weather may change quickly, but that should not mean unexpectedly! A 172 is not the ideal weapon to tackle mountains in bad weather, anyway.
No emergency equipment of any kind, and flying 1500ft BELOW safety altitude?
I glad all survived, but I hope the driver (I can't call him a pilot!)learns his lesson.
The weather did not cause this accident. Human stupidity did!
Poor, or no, planning. The weather may change quickly, but that should not mean unexpectedly! A 172 is not the ideal weapon to tackle mountains in bad weather, anyway.
No emergency equipment of any kind, and flying 1500ft BELOW safety altitude?
I glad all survived, but I hope the driver (I can't call him a pilot!)learns his lesson.
The weather did not cause this accident. Human stupidity did!
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Nimbus,
You may be right, but I'm really not that sure. I fly in the Welsh mountains occasionally (btw, I have a PPL(A) too, so what helicopters can or can't do is not the point here) and the weather can change very fast and fairly unexpectedly - forecasts can be wrong as to cloudbase and cloud cover quite easily. But Snowdonia is a smallish area and you can usually escape. I was planning on flying through the Cairngorms last summer, but we got stranded in Dundee due to absolutely unflyable weather. But it's a big area of mountains, and I can easily imagine someone checking the weather, making what seemed a not too unreasonable decision, and being wrong. That's why I asked what I did. There is probably no real answer. But does anyone have any more comments or suggestions?
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
You may be right, but I'm really not that sure. I fly in the Welsh mountains occasionally (btw, I have a PPL(A) too, so what helicopters can or can't do is not the point here) and the weather can change very fast and fairly unexpectedly - forecasts can be wrong as to cloudbase and cloud cover quite easily. But Snowdonia is a smallish area and you can usually escape. I was planning on flying through the Cairngorms last summer, but we got stranded in Dundee due to absolutely unflyable weather. But it's a big area of mountains, and I can easily imagine someone checking the weather, making what seemed a not too unreasonable decision, and being wrong. That's why I asked what I did. There is probably no real answer. But does anyone have any more comments or suggestions?
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Whirly
To fly is human, to hover, divine.
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Hi Whirly,
Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, or simplistic, but he must have seen it if he looked out the window! In something like a 172, the time to do a 180 is when it looks like it might get bad, not when it IS bad.
Flying in mountains, even in good weather, demands a little extra attention.
I've never been really caught by bad weather, so maybe I shouldn't even be commenting. I have had to file an airborne IFR plan a few times, but I knew in advance it was a possibility so I was prepared in advance.
Theres probably no real answer to your question. If you suddenly find yourself in that position theres not a lot you can do.
I'm just amazed that people get into it in the first place.
Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, or simplistic, but he must have seen it if he looked out the window! In something like a 172, the time to do a 180 is when it looks like it might get bad, not when it IS bad.
Flying in mountains, even in good weather, demands a little extra attention.
I've never been really caught by bad weather, so maybe I shouldn't even be commenting. I have had to file an airborne IFR plan a few times, but I knew in advance it was a possibility so I was prepared in advance.
Theres probably no real answer to your question. If you suddenly find yourself in that position theres not a lot you can do.
I'm just amazed that people get into it in the first place.
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I have never flown in known/unknown icing conditions, but what timescales would the buildup of ice to such an extent that the aerodynamics are impared occur? 5mins, 10mins - just curious, Is it speed dependent 172 different from PA30 say?
GV
GV
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Aren’t we all being a bit judgementful here, not to say smug?
It strikes me that what most of us are thinking is “I wouldn’t get in that position”. Well perhaps not, then again…….
I think I would like to hear the Pilot’s account (Isn’t he lucky we can) before I condemn him, if as we all suspect he has been a pratt, he should be the first to say so but he won’t have the opportunity to be the first as we have already told HIM.
It strikes me that what most of us are thinking is “I wouldn’t get in that position”. Well perhaps not, then again…….
I think I would like to hear the Pilot’s account (Isn’t he lucky we can) before I condemn him, if as we all suspect he has been a pratt, he should be the first to say so but he won’t have the opportunity to be the first as we have already told HIM.
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Whirly, your post reminds me of the incident when one of the French kings (Louis something) took his young son (the Dauphin) to his chief riding master for his first riding lesson. Said the king to Monsieur Pluvinel the riding master: "I ask only that you teach him enough for him to look OK on the horse and handle it sympathetically" to which Pluvinel replied:
"Sire, you ask me to teach him all I know!"
Here you will have everyone racking their brains, because there is no set answer. In theory there is no sure-fire way out of the problem (only avoid). I think all you can do is gather as much info as possible before and during the flight to help you if this happens. Like studying the map well and looking around as you go so that you are constantly aware of the position and height of the mountains and the routes to take you back to low ground. Like "If I go into cloud now a heading of 350 degrees will keep me clear of mountains higher than me five miles/ take me to the coast where I can get back below cloud" and in desperandum, is there anyone nearby with radar/ an SRA approach (if you have no instrument approach aids of any type) who can steer me clear/ get me down, and whom I can speak to from here" (note the military seem to have no interest in reporting you to the CAA if you screw up and have to be helped by them). Obviously it helps if you're already speaking to them or at least someone.
As to ice formation, each aircraft is different (on the C150 you usually see it first top corner of the "windscreen" near the temp. gauge, but not always), and you can never be sure how fast it will build up (hence the only ice which is OK is "no ice"!). There are lots of clever ways of deducing if it will get warmer or colder if you climb (vis your position relative to a passing cold/warm front if there is one), which could decide you on whether to try to climb above the weather. In a light aircraft you probably can't get high enough to do any good, and anyway, I'd hesistate to trust my judgement on this. Then you have to consider the temp at ground level, and whether the ice really will melt even if you get below the cloud.
No, you're in sh** street, so:
aviate, navigate, communicate if poss. and above all try and keep a clear head so you can use your wits, planning information and situational awareness to decide on the best course of action in the circumstances. Probably a route/heading to get to lower ground will be your best ally, and the knowledge that the cloud base is low and the freezing point is near the ground would be the greatest deterrent to setting out in the first place. Also know positions of local airfields in case you do a 180 and get out of cloud only to find you can't get back because it's closing in behind you.
It's a question I've asked myself repeatedly, and so far these are the best answers I've found. I'd be interested to know of other people's strategies.
"Sire, you ask me to teach him all I know!"
Here you will have everyone racking their brains, because there is no set answer. In theory there is no sure-fire way out of the problem (only avoid). I think all you can do is gather as much info as possible before and during the flight to help you if this happens. Like studying the map well and looking around as you go so that you are constantly aware of the position and height of the mountains and the routes to take you back to low ground. Like "If I go into cloud now a heading of 350 degrees will keep me clear of mountains higher than me five miles/ take me to the coast where I can get back below cloud" and in desperandum, is there anyone nearby with radar/ an SRA approach (if you have no instrument approach aids of any type) who can steer me clear/ get me down, and whom I can speak to from here" (note the military seem to have no interest in reporting you to the CAA if you screw up and have to be helped by them). Obviously it helps if you're already speaking to them or at least someone.
As to ice formation, each aircraft is different (on the C150 you usually see it first top corner of the "windscreen" near the temp. gauge, but not always), and you can never be sure how fast it will build up (hence the only ice which is OK is "no ice"!). There are lots of clever ways of deducing if it will get warmer or colder if you climb (vis your position relative to a passing cold/warm front if there is one), which could decide you on whether to try to climb above the weather. In a light aircraft you probably can't get high enough to do any good, and anyway, I'd hesistate to trust my judgement on this. Then you have to consider the temp at ground level, and whether the ice really will melt even if you get below the cloud.
No, you're in sh** street, so:
aviate, navigate, communicate if poss. and above all try and keep a clear head so you can use your wits, planning information and situational awareness to decide on the best course of action in the circumstances. Probably a route/heading to get to lower ground will be your best ally, and the knowledge that the cloud base is low and the freezing point is near the ground would be the greatest deterrent to setting out in the first place. Also know positions of local airfields in case you do a 180 and get out of cloud only to find you can't get back because it's closing in behind you.
It's a question I've asked myself repeatedly, and so far these are the best answers I've found. I'd be interested to know of other people's strategies.
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Two thoughts about that last-minute 180 -
1. If it becomes obvious you're not going to be able to avoid the clag, go on instruments before you go into it.
2. Remember to do your turn away from any high ground around.
Better to not leave it to the last-minute, though, or it might be just that
Happy landings
WS
1. If it becomes obvious you're not going to be able to avoid the clag, go on instruments before you go into it.
2. Remember to do your turn away from any high ground around.
Better to not leave it to the last-minute, though, or it might be just that
Happy landings
WS
