Log book fraud anyone??
Guest
Posts: n/a
Log book fraud anyone??
Probably a very silly question this, but since I'm only starting out on my road to a PPL perhaps the seasoned amongst you will overlook my possible naivity. I'm wondering if there isn't a possibility of log book fraud, as so far my hours were left to me to put in my log book, and nobody seemed to care whether they were checked or not. What's to therefore stop someone from placing loads of hours in and making up the where and when of their accruel?? I'm in no way suggesting anyone would do it, but am just curious how it is monitored when it comes to your minimum no of hours for the licence. I would have thought each entry should be co-signed by the PIC or club or something. Or am I wrong? 
TR
TR
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ah yes Beagler, but who checks it - that's what I'm curious about, or is everything done on trust in a sense - I agree, that it's probably something few people are actually going to cheat on anyway, but just feel the avenue appears to be there. If you don't have your logbook handy at the time of a lesson, in my case, it appears I can just fill out the details myself, and I'm unhappy with that idea. I know the FI's won't mind in the least filling in their bit if nothing else, but it still seems a bit dicey. Surely anyone who's needing hours rather than experience can just add a few here and there if necessary - I'm thinking post PPL here as well. What about CPL/ATPLs - do they have any checking done on theirs?? Or is this really a dumb question in the end, because nobody is going to bother frauding the system over it anyway?? 
Guest
Posts: n/a
TikkiRo,
It's not at all a dumb question. Especially after getting your PPL, it would be amazingly easy. This is especially the case, I would think, for things like the new(ish) 90 day rule. If you're not familiar with it, you have to have done three take-offs and landings in the last 90 days to legally carry passengers, but they can be touch and gos. Well, since I fly mainly helicopters, but do a bit of fixed wing flying now and then, as a law abiding person I make sure I do a few circuits once in a while to keep current for taking up friends. I then note the number of takeoffs/landings I've done in my log book. But does anyone check this? Nope. Could I make up a few extra circuits with impunity? Definitely.
Before anyone gets mad, I'm not saying I would do this. But I know someone who said just that - he won't respect a rule which is uncheckable and therefore impossible to enforce - and can you really blame him?
Whirly
[This message has been edited by Whirlybird* (edited 07 October 2000).]
It's not at all a dumb question. Especially after getting your PPL, it would be amazingly easy. This is especially the case, I would think, for things like the new(ish) 90 day rule. If you're not familiar with it, you have to have done three take-offs and landings in the last 90 days to legally carry passengers, but they can be touch and gos. Well, since I fly mainly helicopters, but do a bit of fixed wing flying now and then, as a law abiding person I make sure I do a few circuits once in a while to keep current for taking up friends. I then note the number of takeoffs/landings I've done in my log book. But does anyone check this? Nope. Could I make up a few extra circuits with impunity? Definitely.
Before anyone gets mad, I'm not saying I would do this. But I know someone who said just that - he won't respect a rule which is uncheckable and therefore impossible to enforce - and can you really blame him?
Whirly
[This message has been edited by Whirlybird* (edited 07 October 2000).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Now I think about it in detail I realise that what has been suggested might explain some of the Instructor/CPL/ATPL pilots I have come across who I consider an absolute menace and would refuse to fly with... even if I had a ticket with their airline.
Don't cheat yourself... if you are out of currency collar an instructor for half an hour and don't set off in dodgy weather.
It's only a flaming logbook and you only have one opportunity to enjoy your life!
Don't cheat yourself... if you are out of currency collar an instructor for half an hour and don't set off in dodgy weather.
It's only a flaming logbook and you only have one opportunity to enjoy your life!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Personaly I either filled in my students log book after each trip or supervised them doing same.Made sure exercises were recorded correctly etc.Then at end of training cross checked with student progress sheets to make sure nothing missed.once a PPL. I guess it would be an easy job to fiddle,but beware I had a PPL produce a logbook for a cert of ex. strange I thought as I new the a/c he was supposed to have been flying had been in an accident 18 months before and was still with the plumbers.I had no choice but seek the advice of the Authority they delt with the offending pilot fairly severly.. bye bye
Guest
Posts: n/a
I believe the practice of forging log book flight entries is called 'parker pen flying' ?
Its not worth doing, it cheats yourself
& most likely invalidates any insurance
cover if, heaven forbid, an accident occured & it could be proven that some entries were illegal & maybe invalidating the 90 day rule for example.
I believe the CAA computerised system
can cross check entries to check for anomalies ? although this would only occur
if you sent your licence up for an additional rating etc,
stay safe, follow the rules,
boring maybe, but they are there to
protect you also,
Its not worth doing, it cheats yourself
& most likely invalidates any insurance
cover if, heaven forbid, an accident occured & it could be proven that some entries were illegal & maybe invalidating the 90 day rule for example.
I believe the CAA computerised system
can cross check entries to check for anomalies ? although this would only occur
if you sent your licence up for an additional rating etc,
stay safe, follow the rules,
boring maybe, but they are there to
protect you also,
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hi Beagler I understand your comment and wont hold it against you. It was the only time in lots and lots of years of examining and instructing that I had to do any thing as severe, but I knew the persons history and if I signed his log book he was the sort of non pilot, to go and borrow an a/c from some unsuspecting club or person,then launch off with unsuspecting passengers.Plus he did decline to fly with me after I questioned his entries.What should I have done?The guy was a fraud in the true sense and a dangerous one at that. bye bye.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Fallen Eagle... please don't take my comment as an outright attack on yourself or your profession.
There must be good and bad examples in all walks of life.
I distinctly remember an uncomfortable ride in a PA28 with what I assumed to be a "top gun"... ex club instructor and now twin jet airline co-pilot.
Insisted on approaching to land in a gusty crosswind with full flap because "that was the way the engineers had designed her".
I wouldn't wish the situation we found ourselves in on my worst enemy!
Just because this guy had an ATPL or whatever didn't make him a god pilot.
Question: do airline hopefuls still take aptitude tests or is the requirement just a bulging bank balance these days?
There must be good and bad examples in all walks of life.
I distinctly remember an uncomfortable ride in a PA28 with what I assumed to be a "top gun"... ex club instructor and now twin jet airline co-pilot.
Insisted on approaching to land in a gusty crosswind with full flap because "that was the way the engineers had designed her".
I wouldn't wish the situation we found ourselves in on my worst enemy!
Just because this guy had an ATPL or whatever didn't make him a god pilot.
Question: do airline hopefuls still take aptitude tests or is the requirement just a bulging bank balance these days?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Beagler I think I misunderstood your last as me being severe.Maybe you ment the punishment.My apologies to you if thats the case. THE AUTHORITY issued him with a retraining programe approx 10 hrs plus GFT, QCC it hit his pocket but helped in the end he was also restricted to local flights 25nm radius for next 15 hrs wot do you reckon? bye bye M
Guest
Posts: n/a
It's called P51 (an old type of parker pen), or G-BIRO time (i think there is actually a C172 with that reg).
It used to happen a lot, and the UK CAA used to check at least one log book in every hundred when issuing ratings.They found so many fraudulent entries, which were duly investigated/prosecuted. The cost of such investigation was so great that they now check one log book in a thousand.
Every minute in my log books have been paid for/ earnt. If i find any of my students or professional colleages making fraudulent entries i will not report them as this will cost us all money. I will have aquiet chat when no one is looking( you get the idea).
It used to happen a lot, and the UK CAA used to check at least one log book in every hundred when issuing ratings.They found so many fraudulent entries, which were duly investigated/prosecuted. The cost of such investigation was so great that they now check one log book in a thousand.
Every minute in my log books have been paid for/ earnt. If i find any of my students or professional colleages making fraudulent entries i will not report them as this will cost us all money. I will have aquiet chat when no one is looking( you get the idea).
Guest
Posts: n/a
Beagler I dont think I would take OFFENCE at your comments cos I think we are like minds. If you read one of my posts about punters posted by Whirlybird you will see I am a paint sprayer now, cant afford to support my family anymore by being a QFI. CPL. EXAMINER. Sorry but after nearly 20 years in the game of teaching and even more years of flying I think its a shame cos I had/ have lots to give. bye bye.
Guest
Posts: n/a
There was a case in the Hawaii after an accident
where they found the pilot had been faked a lot
of hours in his logbook. It caught up with him
in the end, unfortunately he took some passengers
with him.
The problem is that you can very easily fake
hours in your logbook. But at the end of day
only you will suffer. Obviously lack of money
in one reason. If you were to fake a few hours
in order to maintain your licence, your acual lack
of currency might kill you. If you fake a lot of hours
your sheer lack of experience might kill you.
Either way it's a gamble.
If you find yourself in that position, considering
fake entries, you really need to consider your
situation. Should you be flying at all?
where they found the pilot had been faked a lot
of hours in his logbook. It caught up with him
in the end, unfortunately he took some passengers
with him.
The problem is that you can very easily fake
hours in your logbook. But at the end of day
only you will suffer. Obviously lack of money
in one reason. If you were to fake a few hours
in order to maintain your licence, your acual lack
of currency might kill you. If you fake a lot of hours
your sheer lack of experience might kill you.
Either way it's a gamble.
If you find yourself in that position, considering
fake entries, you really need to consider your
situation. Should you be flying at all?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Beagler, there is little point in adding hours to your log book for a number of reasons. Up to PPL your log book should be signed by your instructor to say you have done the exercises. After your PPL, if you are just flying for fun, no-one really cares how many hours you have, you will have to either fly regularly with a school or get check outs regularly, so you'll either have the experience or you will be noticed. If you are trying to get hours for a commercial licence, yes you could fib, and end up getting your licence a few hours early (provided you were able to pass the exams and flight tests). Then what? You apply to airlines. They have a look at your log book. Wow, lots of hours, they think, just what we are looking for. Off you go for your interview ending with a sim ride. You are crap. Hmm, they think, for a 2000 hour pilot he flys like someone who only has 700. He is obviously rubbish and we don't want to give him a job.
Or, you scrape through the sim check and fail your conversion course, leaving you with huge embarrasment, a huge bill to pay and not much of a career left.
Also, I do know that the CAA check. I know of one guy who made up something like 500 hours, saying he had gone to the USA and flown there. He got found out, he lost his licence and that was the end of his flying career. I know of others who have been found out. Is it worth the gamble?
Of course if you are just trying to impress your friends by saying how many hours you have, then I would say this. People with no flying experience will think 100 hours sounds a lot. People with lots of experience will know you are fibbing.
And when you make out that someone, just because they are an airline pilot, is some kind of "ace" well it doesn't happen that way. There are good airline pilots and there are mediochre airline pilots.
You say you thought this guy was some kind of god because he had an ATPL, well, no, it doesn't work that way.
Anyone can enrol on an airline pilot course, only those who are committed and have some ability will pass the course and hopefully only those who are very good will get into an airline job.
Your instructor may have been fairly inexperienced when teaching you, he has obviously now moved on, learnt more and got a job as an airline pilot.
How about telling us about why you want to fabricate hours? What is YOUR motivation? This is an anonymous forum, I'm just interested.
Or, you scrape through the sim check and fail your conversion course, leaving you with huge embarrasment, a huge bill to pay and not much of a career left.
Also, I do know that the CAA check. I know of one guy who made up something like 500 hours, saying he had gone to the USA and flown there. He got found out, he lost his licence and that was the end of his flying career. I know of others who have been found out. Is it worth the gamble?
Of course if you are just trying to impress your friends by saying how many hours you have, then I would say this. People with no flying experience will think 100 hours sounds a lot. People with lots of experience will know you are fibbing.
And when you make out that someone, just because they are an airline pilot, is some kind of "ace" well it doesn't happen that way. There are good airline pilots and there are mediochre airline pilots.
You say you thought this guy was some kind of god because he had an ATPL, well, no, it doesn't work that way.
Anyone can enrol on an airline pilot course, only those who are committed and have some ability will pass the course and hopefully only those who are very good will get into an airline job.
Your instructor may have been fairly inexperienced when teaching you, he has obviously now moved on, learnt more and got a job as an airline pilot.
How about telling us about why you want to fabricate hours? What is YOUR motivation? This is an anonymous forum, I'm just interested.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I have no intention of fabricating hours, not now, not ever!
I fly for leisure so I have no career to chase and I do not want to use hours like a golf handicap.
The ATPL guy was not instructing me, I was sat in the back seat crapping myself.
He is still out there as bloody dangerous as ever!
I fly for leisure so I have no career to chase and I do not want to use hours like a golf handicap.
The ATPL guy was not instructing me, I was sat in the back seat crapping myself.
He is still out there as bloody dangerous as ever!
Guest
Posts: n/a
People,
NO-ONE here has said they want to fabricate hours, or have done so, or intend to. They're merely commenting on how easily it could be done.
Grandad Flyer, fifthcolumns and Purple Pitot, interesting posts. I knew it must have happened, and wondered if anyone ever checked. Good to know.
However...when I worked as a market research interviewer, people who cheated by making up answers to surveys easily got caught by the backchecking methods, and sacked. The ones who managed to cheat for years and get away with it were cleverer; they did the surveys, asked a few questions but made up SOME of the answers - much more difficult to find out.
To transfer this to flying...suppose you did the flights but just added a bit on the time, a couple of extra landings to be within the 90 day rule, that sort of thing. Could anyone find out? I doubt it. Or am I wrong? And before anyone goes of the deep end and flames me, I HAVE NOT DONE THIS AND HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING SO!
Whirly
NO-ONE here has said they want to fabricate hours, or have done so, or intend to. They're merely commenting on how easily it could be done.
Grandad Flyer, fifthcolumns and Purple Pitot, interesting posts. I knew it must have happened, and wondered if anyone ever checked. Good to know.
However...when I worked as a market research interviewer, people who cheated by making up answers to surveys easily got caught by the backchecking methods, and sacked. The ones who managed to cheat for years and get away with it were cleverer; they did the surveys, asked a few questions but made up SOME of the answers - much more difficult to find out.
To transfer this to flying...suppose you did the flights but just added a bit on the time, a couple of extra landings to be within the 90 day rule, that sort of thing. Could anyone find out? I doubt it. Or am I wrong? And before anyone goes of the deep end and flames me, I HAVE NOT DONE THIS AND HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING SO!
Whirly
Guest
Posts: n/a
Thanks people - as Whirlybird said, and I concur, I wasn't (nor anyone else as far as I can see) suggesting the idea of doing so, but was just interested in the concept. Just my nature - assessing loopholes in things. Problem is that when I ask questions about such a loophole people wonder if the reason I'm doing so, is because I've either done the deed or am thinking about it. Not my nature I'm afraid - but I'm one of these types who would love to be involved in taking a suspect device through customs/x-ray to see if they spotted it (with authorisation of course!)or would love to be involved in checking out security in other angles of the aviation industry. But I digress - good debate everyone and thanks for the feedback.
TR
TR
