EASA threat to operation of N Reg Aircraft

[tdbristol]

Why was it passed by Comitology committee?

The report on the AOPA website says:

The EU Commission was very aware of the concerns on this subject and the UK Minister sympathised with some of the concerns

Why was this passed unaminously then??
Surely the whole point is that if there are 'serious concerns' then it should NOT be passed, but EASA told to go back and think again!

Yes the meeting delayed the worst outcome - and created uncertainty for two years - but there is still the current threat hanging over N-reg for some possible / mythical BASA sometime in the future..

Why did the Comitology committee members - at least one of them, as it seems that's all it would have taken - not have the courage to say to EASA "no - come back when you have a solution to the problem, not just the problem".

And who specifically are the members of the Comitology committee?

[noblue]

I was confused by the reference to the UK minister too. It initially sounded like a minister was actually present, but I don't think that is correct. I'm not sure though how much 'concern' the minister can transmit via a set of officials.

I always thought that the EU legislative process included the Council of Ministers. With the introduction of these regulations however it seems that much of the process takes place behind closed doors by nameless & faceless people who are accountable to no-one. The elected parliamentarians only get involved if they choose to scrutinize the regs within 3 months of Comitology. What a farce.

[robin]

Any minister would always 'sympathise with concerns' but still do nothing.

It's equivalent to 'I feel your pain' when you are being tortured.

There are very few politicos who have the slightest idea of the effect of their decisions. Most of them have never done a proper job and those that have are probably working in a Department in a sphere they don't understand.

I understand the current Minister was prepared for and was hoping for a completely different job. Like most Transport Ministers they consider it to be a demotion. They are fitted with 'Kick me Pants' on arrival just waiting for the wrong sort of snow and airport and road chaos.

They are usually gone within a year or so, so we've learned never to trust any utterances from any Transport Minister. They are never around long enough to see their words translated into action.

Cynical? Moi?

[bookworm]

I was confused by the reference to the UK minister too. It initially sounded like a minister was actually present, but I don't think that is correct. I'm not sure though how much 'concern' the minister can transmit via a set of officials.

The linked report was on a UK DfT briefing, not on the Committology Meeting.

The minutes of the December Comitology Meeting are here.

[IO540]

The CAA report on the situation is here.

According to this report, the 2-year extension is something which some States can ignore. This makes this deal rather sinister, because e.g. Germany could shaft German resident N-reg operators after 2012, while e.g. the UK could delay it to 2014.

It is hard to see how the individual States agreed to this garbage. No wonder the minutes are so bland.

On a positive note, I can't see that the EU can boot out N-regs in 2012, 2014 or 2015 any more easily and with any less sh*t hitting the fan, than they can do so tomorrow. So even though I am sure the "BASA carrot" is dishonest, if it doesn't happen, then - in the absence of other solutions - nothing else will happen either and the status quo will continue.

[AN2 Driver]

According to this report, the 2-year extension is something which some States can ignore. This makes this deal rather sinister, because e.g. Germany could shaft German resident N-reg operators after 2012, while e.g. the UK could delay it to 2014.

Thought so, but this is even worse. So that whole "extension" AOPA and all brag about is nothing at all. The protests and all were just driven over by a leaky sewage truck.

It is hard to see how the individual States agreed to this garbage. No wonder the minutes are so bland.

Is it? Look at the model the Eurocrats have in mind for this continent. And you'll see how things will go. How was private aviation in the Soviet Union? At least, they were pro-aviation there, as a matter of prestige. Europe is pro donkey cart when it comes to personal transport. They are not being bland, that is what they WANT!

On a positive note, I can't see that the EU can boot out N-regs in 2012, 2014 or 2015 any more easily and with any less sh*t hitting the fan, than they can do so tomorrow. So even though I am sure the "BASA carrot" is dishonest, if it doesn't happen, then - in the absence of other solutions - nothing else will happen either and the status quo will continue.

I CAN see it, and it WILL happen. They have so much garbage flying their way, they've become imune and can't even smell it anymore. The BASA Carrot is not only dishonest, it will, if it ever happens and it is my opinion that it won't, not solve anything other than the actual N-reg planes. What about Canadian, Russian, Isle of Man, others? To believe in this, you'd have to believe in Father Frost and the Easter Bunny too.

Yes, I am not directly concerned as I don't fly nor own an American license nor aircraft, but this one is is the beginning of the end for GA in Europe. Of this I am totally convinced. The Germans (EASA is based in Cologne) have not forgotten how to build "anti fascistic walls" and they won't hesitate to build one around Europe whereas Aviation is concerned.

Time to move on. Question is where to. Ideas are welcome.

AN2

[tdbristol]

"Minutes" of Comitology meeting

What an utter farce!

NO-ONE is named!! Who was present from each of the organisations listed?
Who opposed and who proposed to go ahead?
Are the people who control the writing of the minutes such spineless cowards that they won't allow their names to be shown; they won't take responsibility for the damage they do? (As they know what heat they will otherwise get!)

Time for an FOI request to the EU, to find the names of the people involved. Anyone know how to get anywhere with this?
(I've spent ages searching and found lots of links talking about it, the laws involved, general descriptions etc. but not how specifically to actually do it. And the EU website is not helpful either.)

[IO540]

Time to move on. Question is where to. Ideas are welcome.

That sort of decision is best left till we know the final wording of any legislation.

Currently it all hangs on "operator" "residence" and the exact definitions of these will be useful to know, before you relocate to Croatia

[proudprivate]

While in Croatia...

...you could buy yourself a second hand Sukhoi 27P. I think the range should largely suffice for a flight from LDSP to EDDK, with a strategic diversion at the last minute straight on in the direction of the river.

More seriously, I think it is time to write to our MEP's citing
- how the Commission has acted untruthfully in responding to MEP Higgins
- what is precisely at stake here (our freedom to travel)
- asking for scrutiny of the legislation, as it clearly exceeds EASA's mandate
- the lack of transparency in this so called democratic process

[AN2 Driver]

IO540,

Croatia would be great but how long until the Borg assimilate all of Europe? No telling. Probably, we are talking a change of continent to escape this nonsense.

Apart, I don't think it will stop with aviation. There is much more in store for all of us. Frankly, the only hope in all this might be a collapse of the Euro and subsequent dissolution of the whole EU. The countries left to themselfs were doing much better (ok, there was Germany) than now, at least aviation wise.

[IO540]

the only hope in all this might be a collapse of the Euro and subsequent dissolution of the whole EU

A great idea but it probably won't happen. Germany seems happy to bail everybody out... and they have plenty of money.

It will be a tragedy if Croatia joins the EU. I can't believe they will be stupid enough to do it. They are not really stupid people at all. The other hangers on joined for the handouts but there won't be many handouts in the future.

How many Euro FAA cert holders will take this 2 year hiatus to get equivalent JAA certificates? just in case.

It depends on how many believe there will be / will not be a solution at the end of the 2 year extension.

I have been flying seriously (in my TB20) since 2002 and first heard of the N-reg option shortly after I got that. Ever since then, there has been a load of fear and doubt being spread by lots of people - in flying schools, on pilot forums, every regulatory/ATC presentation you go to, everywhere.

After a bit you realise this business is packed to the brim with good for nothing axe grinders who just love to screw others around, and you take stuff with a pinch of salt.

Nevertheless there has been a steady stream of people doing the JAA IR "just in case". Not many; I guess about 10/year in the UK, with one group a few years ago which was about 20 people (not sure how far they got; I know many dropped out). I expect something bigger in Germany (Germans are more compliant than the Brits). France is the 3rd remaining significant GA scene in Europe but there are few IRs there; very little touring goes on in / out of France.

Against the few k N-reg pilot/owners in Europe, this is an insignificant trickle if you are thinking of the next 2 years.

Also (as I keep saying) it is hardly rational to cave in at this late stage, when it is obvious how relatively effective the lobbying has been so far. I don't think many will cave in; the majority of N-reg pilot owners are not really following developments closely.

[AN2 Driver]

A great idea but it probably won't happen. Germany seems happy to bail everybody out... and they have plenty of money.

Germany may be, but the Germans are not. They are fleeing the country by the thousands as they have to pick up everyone's bill, 40% taxes and more to come. All that is needed is a uprising there and it will be all over. Polls indicate that 60% of Germans wish to go back to the D-Mark tomorrow. Rumours are, they already printed them (the government that is) for that eventuality.

It will be a tragedy if Croatia joins the EU. I can't believe they will be stupid enough to do it. They are not really stupid people at all. The other hangers on joined for the handouts but there won't be many handouts in the future.

The people may not be but their politicians are like everywhere else. They are set for fast track to the EU, possibly they are going to be saved by the fact that the EU has no mind for newbies right now. But they are talking to Kosovo and Albania, so Croatia would be before them even. The big sell out of the Balkan has been in progress for some time, Romania and Bulgaria are already assimilated...

Also (as I keep saying) it is hardly rational to cave in at this late stage, when it is obvious how relatively effective the lobbying has been so far. I don't think many will cave in; the majority of N-reg pilot owners are not really following developments closely.

Well, once it does happen, lots of folks will be grounded. EASA is fully aware and actually, that is what they aim for. So it's not so much a question of caving in or not, but whether to continue to fly in Europe or not. I'd say a lot of folks won't. And that does not count for the business aviation bit of it.

AN2

[noblue]

To my thinking the fact that derogations are to be applied piecemeal by the NAAs makes the initial reports of postponed implementation very much weaker. I am surprised at the lack of response so far from the "November Pool" though.

[IO540]

I have just read another "report from the meeting", from Switzerland, and it does not mention this.

Thus far, the UK CAA writeup, done presumably from the DfT report which was itself based on a (confidential) report/briefing by somebody from the DfT attending, is the only one which mentions the country-by-country derogation option.

It appears that something rather more controversial was also proposed/discussed in the meeting and this is why nobody is talking openly.

[noblue]

IO, is there a link to the Swiss report?

[IO540]

No link as such. Drop me an email...

[421C]

I have just read another "report from the meeting", from Switzerland, and it does not mention this.

There is no real mystery here. The original reports from the Comitology meeting referred to a 2 year "derogation".

If one looks into technically what that means, it doesn't mean "an EU rule is suspended for 2 years". Derogation means specifically, from wikipedia,

"In terms of European Union legislation, a derogation can also imply that a member state delays the implementation of an element of an EU Regulation (etc) into their legal system over a given timescale, such as five years; or that a member state has opted not to enforce a specific provision in a treaty due to internal circumstances (typically a state of emergency)."

I guess some of us misunderstood the term Derogation as an automatic 2 year suspension, whereas the mechanism appears to be to allow the member states not to enforce a rule for 2 years. The CAA bulletin helpfully spells that out.

Thus far, the UK CAA writeup, done presumably from the DfT report which was itself based on a (confidential) report/briefing by somebody from the DfT attending, is the only one which mentions the country-by-country derogation option.

No. AFAIK the UK attendees at the Comitology meeting were the same 2 individuals who reported back at the DfT forum and one of those was the person whose name is on the CAA bulletin.

It appears that something rather more controversial was also proposed/discussed in the meeting and this is why nobody is talking openly.

Two points. First, isn't it obvious there is a camp in Europe who want FRA banned and a camp who don't. And then there are others in between. So one can imagine the discussion. Secondly, we have to accept that there are points in a process in which a team or board or committee need or want to have private deliberations, legitimately so, and then report their outcomes. No business or government process opens everthing up to real-time public scrutiny.

I'm not saying the FRA lobby should stop. Quite the opposite. We have an uncertain remedy (the BASA) to a certain problem (EASA FCL wrt FRA). I am just saying there's no mystery to the recent process. Some stakeholders want X, some want Y. The EU/EASA have reasonably cleverly defused the situation to a degree in the classic way - a delay and the dangled carrot of a remedy. This doesn't satsfy the 'end-user' stakeholders (ie. FRA pilots) but it does take the pressure off, because it makes it that much harder to persuade sympathetic stakeholders to act - an MEP or a Minister has a bunch of pressing issues to deal with and this one has become (like it or not) politcally non-pressing. However, AOPA/GAMA/November Group seem to have some sensible lobbying expertise, so I am sure they know the right path going forward.

My personal view is that a lot of FRA pilots have been asleep at the wheel on this topic for the last few years. Whining on a forum accomplishes little or nothing. The odd petition suggestion isn't going to do much better. People should put their money behind the lobbying organisations. Joining, but even better, donating beyond the membership fee.

I know people will disagree, or complain about X,Y,Z in each organisation, or write that a grass-roots PPRUNE effort would be best......and, being blunt, that's why, in Europe, GA gets the regulatory regime it deserves.

[IO540]

421C

It may be helpful if you could list which organisations you think are worth backing, and what the historical record of each one is when it comes to strongly and unambiguously backing the N-reg community and achieving anything.

[421C]

It may be helpful if you could list which organisations you think are worth backing

For private N-reg operators, I think AOPA is the obvious starting point. (At a European level, Europe Air Sports is also an excellent organisation and one can support it through a national affiliate; but I don't think FRA is a topic relevant to the mainstream of EAS's stakeholders). The N-Flyer group also looks to be doing good work. For corporate operators, the EBAA seem to be involved in the pro-FRA lobby and one can join them directly I think or through an affiliate like BBGA.

what the historical record of each one is when it comes to strongly and unambiguously backing the N-reg community and achieving anything

I'm not a marketing spokesman for these groups. Just go to AOPA or N-Flyers website and judge for yourself. Perhaps the historical record is not stellar. So what is the better alternative? And how much better would the record have been if European pilots joined their lobby groups in the proportions people in the US do?

There is a chicken and egg problem of course. Without resources, an organisation can't deliver a new level of performance to attract members. But without a new level of performance, the members won't join (the "but what does it do for me?" brigade). This can be resolved in one of two ways. Either an amazing windfall, lotter-win style, for an organisation OR new members joining despite their reservations that it isn't perfectly aligned with their personal preferences of what a pilot organisation should be and should do. I guess most of the apathy crowd are sort of waiting for the former, but the latter is the only realistic way. In the meantime, European GA will get the regulation it deserves.

[IO540]

Whining on a forum accomplishes little or nothing

I think the 1st step is to identify the biggest losers in this, and they are definitely the pilots of corporate / business jets and turboprops, flying on FAA ATPs and CPL/IRs.

These are not really on any forums, but some of them read pprune, and this is a good reason for keeping the profile here as high as possible. Spreading the news to any jet pilot you know is really vital.

Whereas most "little people" on N-reg have been aware of the uncertainty issues since Day 1, most of the bizjet crowd has had their heads totally in the sand - yet they are the most powerful potential lobbyists.

AOPA UK has an ambiguous historical record on N-reg but has apparently come into line within the past year, which is good.

The November campaign as an interesting new one. They are apparently trying to raise funds to retain a lawyer.