EASA threat to operation of N Reg Aircraft
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Pace
I think you may be out of date.
Training in America is definitely less expensive, but the differentials are nothing like what they were say ten years ago. Look up the cost of MEP hire State side and its now around 2/3rd the cost here.
Now I agree costs add up. Then there is the theory nonesense connected with doing a Euro style IR. However you can do the the flying part of a Euro IR for less than £11k. What would an FAA IR cost these days?
I think Europe is part way to having the infra structure but I agree is sinking under a burden of over regulation.
The fact of the matter is private pilots are just that - they dont fly commercially and they fly in their spare time for enjoyment. If you force them to attend residential courses (when they could do the same thing at their local club), force them to take exams at Gatwick (when they could take the same exams at their local club), etc you end up with pilots who just cant be bothered because they have neither the time or resources. You also end up with pilots who are less safe to go about their business.
When I started flying you hardly ever saw an N reg. I dont know exactly why. Were they less popular in those days? Had people not realised the advantages they convey? Now days it seems almost every private pilot with an IR is on the N reg. Back then it was rare to come across a pilot with an IR. If this isnt resolved we will return to those days - Europe will become a hinterland for only VFR operations amoung the private operators.
People like Jim Thorpe have much to answer for. Why the PPL/IR organisation allow him to represent them escapes me. However, they give creditability to this nonesense and that, to me at any rate, is a great worry.
I think you may be out of date.
Training in America is definitely less expensive, but the differentials are nothing like what they were say ten years ago. Look up the cost of MEP hire State side and its now around 2/3rd the cost here.
Now I agree costs add up. Then there is the theory nonesense connected with doing a Euro style IR. However you can do the the flying part of a Euro IR for less than £11k. What would an FAA IR cost these days?
I think Europe is part way to having the infra structure but I agree is sinking under a burden of over regulation.
The fact of the matter is private pilots are just that - they dont fly commercially and they fly in their spare time for enjoyment. If you force them to attend residential courses (when they could do the same thing at their local club), force them to take exams at Gatwick (when they could take the same exams at their local club), etc you end up with pilots who just cant be bothered because they have neither the time or resources. You also end up with pilots who are less safe to go about their business.
When I started flying you hardly ever saw an N reg. I dont know exactly why. Were they less popular in those days? Had people not realised the advantages they convey? Now days it seems almost every private pilot with an IR is on the N reg. Back then it was rare to come across a pilot with an IR. If this isnt resolved we will return to those days - Europe will become a hinterland for only VFR operations amoung the private operators.
People like Jim Thorpe have much to answer for. Why the PPL/IR organisation allow him to represent them escapes me. However, they give creditability to this nonesense and that, to me at any rate, is a great worry.
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I would just say that an FAA IR will always cost much less than a JAA IR (ab initio in both cases) because in the vast majority of cases the candidate has instrument time already. Almost everybody I personally know who did the FAA IR already has the IMCR and 50+ hrs of instrument time, of which a good 25 was dual. With the JAA IR this means nothing. With the FAA IR, it is all allowed, and you just need to be good enough for the checkride. That's a big part of the reason why my FAA IR cost about 1/4 of what it would cost to do it in the UK. If I had done the 50hr JAA one I would just be banging airways around Bournemouth (etc) to clock up the 50hrs, learning actually very little. The ground school also represents a huge cost in the time, for anybody with a job - probably £10k-£30k for a businessman.
Edit: I think N-regs are more popular because aviation knowledge is mode widespread now, due to the internet. Nearly all relevant aviation knowledge is not imparted on pilots by instructors; it is transferred peer to peer between pilots. When I was doing my PPL 2000-2001, absolutely nobody mentioned the N-reg option to me, and I was looking at the IR from day 1, across 2 schools and maybe 10 instructors. I did not discover it until about 2003, from an N-reg pilot, and that was online. Pilots who do real long distance touring etc don't hang out at airport bars, and the instructors don't fly much themselves.
Edit: I think N-regs are more popular because aviation knowledge is mode widespread now, due to the internet. Nearly all relevant aviation knowledge is not imparted on pilots by instructors; it is transferred peer to peer between pilots. When I was doing my PPL 2000-2001, absolutely nobody mentioned the N-reg option to me, and I was looking at the IR from day 1, across 2 schools and maybe 10 instructors. I did not discover it until about 2003, from an N-reg pilot, and that was online. Pilots who do real long distance touring etc don't hang out at airport bars, and the instructors don't fly much themselves.
Last edited by IO540; 14th Oct 2010 at 13:24.
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There is a fundamental difference in ethos between Europe and the US which extends way beyond aviation. It is staggering that even in the midst of severe recession few politicians argue for a sustained and sweaping removal of regulation as a way of stimulating economic growth.
It is not difficult to see how this would apply across the board in GA (not to mention commercial) to stimulate the industry. The process is really quite clear: Maintenance less regulated = cheaper cost of ownership = more people fly and more people buy = more jobs in flight training and sales of aircraft and more sales of avgas and business for maintenance organisations = more people train to be instructors and engineers and train to obtain PPLs. Likewise, you can to the equation the other way with cheeper trainig cost = more people flying, having licenses and being willing and able to afford a lower cost IR and aeroplanes etc. The whole process ripples out through connected industries.
The raison d'etre for bureaucrats is to produce rules and regulations and suggesting to them that they may like to make fewer rules is the equivalent of inviting the turkey to walk into the oven. it won't happen. It takes political will. Maybe the coalition have that will, with their slashing of quangos; who knows
Europe almost certainly doesn't have the will because over regulation is the norm and is a convenient shield to avoid personal responsibility at almost every level. Invitations to consider reduced regulation in the face of economic meltdown are met with incredulity and to many in Europe the answer to the crisis is actually more regulation as what the've got clearly isn't enough
It is not difficult to see how this would apply across the board in GA (not to mention commercial) to stimulate the industry. The process is really quite clear: Maintenance less regulated = cheaper cost of ownership = more people fly and more people buy = more jobs in flight training and sales of aircraft and more sales of avgas and business for maintenance organisations = more people train to be instructors and engineers and train to obtain PPLs. Likewise, you can to the equation the other way with cheeper trainig cost = more people flying, having licenses and being willing and able to afford a lower cost IR and aeroplanes etc. The whole process ripples out through connected industries.
The raison d'etre for bureaucrats is to produce rules and regulations and suggesting to them that they may like to make fewer rules is the equivalent of inviting the turkey to walk into the oven. it won't happen. It takes political will. Maybe the coalition have that will, with their slashing of quangos; who knows
Europe almost certainly doesn't have the will because over regulation is the norm and is a convenient shield to avoid personal responsibility at almost every level. Invitations to consider reduced regulation in the face of economic meltdown are met with incredulity and to many in Europe the answer to the crisis is actually more regulation as what the've got clearly isn't enough
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Justiciar
I totally agree with you. Looking at the UK we lost most of our production jobs and relied on the square mile, the service industry and government jobs when the milk and honey was flowing.
That suited our then government who wanted the BIG STATE and were happy to job create by setting up all the quangos, burocrats, regulators etc.
The square mile collapsed leaving what? All these groups have to regulate to survive otherwise they have no jobs. The fact that they were artificially created and NOT wealth creating has left a major problem today!
The same goes with Europe.
Old Mrs T wanted to remove government intervention as far as possible and that was reversed big time through the last government.The problem we have is that 20% of jobs were created this way. They are a costly luxury which the enduser has to pay for. That is what is so difficult to remove today when we cannot afford it.
Pace
I totally agree with you. Looking at the UK we lost most of our production jobs and relied on the square mile, the service industry and government jobs when the milk and honey was flowing.
That suited our then government who wanted the BIG STATE and were happy to job create by setting up all the quangos, burocrats, regulators etc.
The square mile collapsed leaving what? All these groups have to regulate to survive otherwise they have no jobs. The fact that they were artificially created and NOT wealth creating has left a major problem today!
The same goes with Europe.
Old Mrs T wanted to remove government intervention as far as possible and that was reversed big time through the last government.The problem we have is that 20% of jobs were created this way. They are a costly luxury which the enduser has to pay for. That is what is so difficult to remove today when we cannot afford it.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 14th Oct 2010 at 14:29.
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What would an FAA IR cost these days?
PLus of course the $90 ground exam (as opposed to £1000 ground school + £70x7(?) exams = £1490)
Plus $400 examiner fee ( as opposed to 170A costs plus about £650 examiner fee)
PLus incidentals (TSA / Visa if applicable) $250
I have not included approach and landing fees in this as they would apply if training for the FAA IR in the UK too, but can be avoided by flying in the USA.
When all is said and done, an FAA IR could cost £6000 from scratch as opposed to £12490 for a JAA IR.
There is NO increase in safey by paying £6490 more for your IR, that is fact.
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I would just say that an FAA IR will always cost much less than a JAA IR (ab initio in both cases) because in the vast majority of cases the candidate has instrument time already.
Mind you given there is no such thing as a free lunch (well not in aviation at any rate) the pilot has paid for his IMCr or other instrument training so it would be unreasonable to exclude this from the cost - it is just a different way of paying.
Of course it is a farce that the same credit is not given for the IMCr. That may change with the EIR, but I dont hold out much hope.
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Fuji Abound :
I completed my FAA IR in Europe for a total cost of about € 9000 last year, which included about 50 hours of dual instruction, landing fees etc...
(€150 plane rental, €40 / h instruction fee)
At the time, I had to go to the states for the exam, because the Europe FAA DPE was unavailable (I did my FAA PPL in Norwich), which added another € 1500 EUR to the cost (flight + stay + aircraft familiarization over there + exam fees). This was not cost optimized.
The € 150 rental over here compares to $ 110 rental in the Mid-West, but it is of course much more convenient to get your flight training here. In addition, my FAA instructor learned me procedural specifics about European IFR flight. I understand that the FAA DPE in Europe also includes specific European twists, both in the oral and the checkride.
N-regs are more popular because
1) Obtaining a medical is less cumbersome, especially for under 40's
2) The training material and examination requirements are much more accessible and clear and the IR is obtainable and maintainable by non-professionals.
3) There used to be a VAT advantage in ownership (legacy issue)
Overall, there is a huge difference in attitude towards private flying in Europe and the US. European policy makers tend to see it as a "sport" or "hobby" and fail to perceive it as a way of travel.
Justiciar:
Mmmm. This doesn't explain the differences in efficiency between the US and Europe, as they are bureaucrats on both sides of the atlantic. The European problem is more that aviation is often linked to the military, making it very much a member state issue, complicating harmonization. Look at the airspace structure in Europe, for example. The common denominator that everyone can agree upon is then often an overly complicated overregulated outcome. Add to that some misguided lobbying (the UK is not without sin here) on job-creation and protectionism and there you have it. I doubt whether dragging Mrs T back in is bound to make things better.
Just my $0.02 (added to the €10500
).
What would an FAA IR cost these days?
(€150 plane rental, €40 / h instruction fee)
At the time, I had to go to the states for the exam, because the Europe FAA DPE was unavailable (I did my FAA PPL in Norwich), which added another € 1500 EUR to the cost (flight + stay + aircraft familiarization over there + exam fees). This was not cost optimized.
The € 150 rental over here compares to $ 110 rental in the Mid-West, but it is of course much more convenient to get your flight training here. In addition, my FAA instructor learned me procedural specifics about European IFR flight. I understand that the FAA DPE in Europe also includes specific European twists, both in the oral and the checkride.
N-regs are more popular because
1) Obtaining a medical is less cumbersome, especially for under 40's
2) The training material and examination requirements are much more accessible and clear and the IR is obtainable and maintainable by non-professionals.
3) There used to be a VAT advantage in ownership (legacy issue)
Overall, there is a huge difference in attitude towards private flying in Europe and the US. European policy makers tend to see it as a "sport" or "hobby" and fail to perceive it as a way of travel.
Justiciar:
The raison d'etre for bureaucrats is to produce rules and regulations and suggesting to them that they may like to make fewer rules is the equivalent of inviting the turkey to walk into the oven. it won't happen.
Just my $0.02 (added to the €10500
).
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Hence my point - if you compare cost on a like for like basis (it is no good comparing an MEP IR with a SEP IR) there is not as much difference in the cost as you might wish.
I therefore doubt it is a cost thing - it is everything else that puts people off from doing an EASA IR.
I reckon if you modeled an EASA IR on the FAA system you could still charge 30% more and people would come in their flocks. (well almost).
I just dont think it is a cost thing.
I therefore doubt it is a cost thing - it is everything else that puts people off from doing an EASA IR.
I reckon if you modeled an EASA IR on the FAA system you could still charge 30% more and people would come in their flocks. (well almost).
I just dont think it is a cost thing.
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the pilot has paid for his IMCr or other instrument training so it would be unreasonable to exclude this from the cost - it is just a different way of paying.
- you need considerable post-PPL hours before you can start the IR
- you need considerable post-PPL flying experience before you can start the IR, because there is no point in starting it until you are an already very good and accurate VFR pilot
- the IMCR is a very handy halfway step which gives you useful privileges and which is actually usable in a spamcan
The full IR is not generally usable (to the full extent of the extra privileges) in a spamcan because most of the low-end tin cannot hack Eurocontrol airway MEAs etc very well.
So the PPL - IMCR - FAA IR route flows quite naturally, but the PPL - JAA IR route doesn't flow at all because a pilot with (supposedly) zilch instrument experience is now thrown into an expensive FTO process, and I reckon a lot of the 50hrs ends up being poor value for money.
I think this is why the NAA/JAA IR pilot population is so small. It is a lot of work, but it makes no sense until you own your own plane, and it has to be a reasonably good one. And how many people buy a "good" plane for VFR-only? I did, but I had my aim on the IR from day 1 and I made sure I got all the right avionics. Not many people will buy a (e.g.) TB20 or SR22 or DA42 if the only way forward they are facing is 50hrs in an FTO which probably can't do it in their plane anyway. Whereas a lot of pilots have been hacking around on the IMCR, for years, and those (few) who became owners went for the FAA IRs.
The whole Euro IR system is a total c0ckup from day 1, set up primarily to sort the men from the sheep. They may as well send you all for a couple of yours of conscription... 6 months of face down in the mud is good for character building
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This "authorised instructor" bit must have used up 10GB of bandwidth on pilot forums around the world
IMHO the only meaning of it, in the context of the largely US-centric FARs, and the specific provision for training outside the USA with foreign instructors, is "any instructor authorised locally to do the training", which is rather self evident...
The minimum IMCR dual time is also 15hrs (typical is 20-25).
You and I and half the world knows that last time I expressed my usual forthright views on this, a well known aviation personality send round an email claiming my training to be fake, etc... but it hardly matters now because what he didn't know is that I had flown 25+hrs with an FAA CFII in the USA which rendered any UK training moot... I suppose one could argue the IMCR instructor ought to hold an ICAO IR (rather than just another IMCR); fair enough and this is not hard to make sure of at the time.
The 250nm X/C flight does require an instructor with an ICAO IR because there is no way to meet the FAR wording without going into European airways. But that flight is only a few hours max, and anyway nobody with an IMCR only will be good enough for the FAA IR checkride, so this is one of the things on which you spend the extra hours. As are the last 3 hrs within 60 days of the checkride, etc.
This "authorised instructor" bit must have used up 10GB of bandwidth on pilot forums around the world
IMHO the only meaning of it, in the context of the largely US-centric FARs, and the specific provision for training outside the USA with foreign instructors, is "any instructor authorised locally to do the training", which is rather self evident...
The minimum IMCR dual time is also 15hrs (typical is 20-25).
You and I and half the world knows that last time I expressed my usual forthright views on this, a well known aviation personality send round an email claiming my training to be fake, etc... but it hardly matters now because what he didn't know is that I had flown 25+hrs with an FAA CFII in the USA which rendered any UK training moot... I suppose one could argue the IMCR instructor ought to hold an ICAO IR (rather than just another IMCR); fair enough and this is not hard to make sure of at the time.
The 250nm X/C flight does require an instructor with an ICAO IR because there is no way to meet the FAR wording without going into European airways. But that flight is only a few hours max, and anyway nobody with an IMCR only will be good enough for the FAA IR checkride, so this is one of the things on which you spend the extra hours. As are the last 3 hrs within 60 days of the checkride, etc.
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I went the FAA MIR route because I did not want to take 7 exams plus lots of training and ground school for them to learn lots of rubbish that's not relevant to a private pilot.
I believe the skill test is similar for JAA and FAA, so no real difference.
Is the IOM, Guernsey and Jersey an acceptable base for N reg aircraft as all are outside the EEC?
I believe the skill test is similar for JAA and FAA, so no real difference.
Is the IOM, Guernsey and Jersey an acceptable base for N reg aircraft as all are outside the EEC?
I have been quoted €6000 just to convert my FAA IR to a JAA one; and that does not include another €1500 for the theory exams.
This is not even at my own flying club (which is expensive even for Holland) - this is at one of the cheaper ones!
On the plus side, it IS tax deductible...so, aviation here is not all bad
This is not even at my own flying club (which is expensive even for Holland) - this is at one of the cheaper ones!
On the plus side, it IS tax deductible...so, aviation here is not all bad
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Not tax deductible over here... except in special situations, of which my accountant could not give me any examples
6k euros is OK, especially given the avgas price there...
Egnatia in Greece (LGKV) quote the same, for a DA42-based conversion, and it includes accomodation. There is a flight to LGKV from EGKK every Sunday (maybe not in winter). I have no idea if the UK CAA would accept a Greek (or Spanish) IR onto a UK PPL (not checked yet) but they should.
6k euros is OK, especially given the avgas price there...
Egnatia in Greece (LGKV) quote the same, for a DA42-based conversion, and it includes accomodation. There is a flight to LGKV from EGKK every Sunday (maybe not in winter). I have no idea if the UK CAA would accept a Greek (or Spanish) IR onto a UK PPL (not checked yet) but they should.
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When I see the quote for the IR exams in UK (€ 1500 !?),
it is clear to me that it's the UK CAA who has a problem with
the PPL/IR iso "Europe". € 1500 for exams ? Really ? That's ridiculous !
I think I paid € 180 or something...
it is clear to me that it's the UK CAA who has a problem with
the PPL/IR iso "Europe". € 1500 for exams ? Really ? That's ridiculous !
I think I paid € 180 or something...
I have no idea if the UK CAA would accept a Greek (or Spanish) IR onto a UK PPL (not checked yet) but they should.
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This doesn't explain the differences in efficiency between the US and Europe, as they are bureaucrats on both sides of the atlantic
Pace: quite agree. It is a sobering thought that even if the coalition reduces public expenditure as much as they want to it will still be higher than after the first year of the Blair government. Getting rid of the bureaucrats and their mutual job creation schemes is more difficult than scraping s**t off your shoes; they are certainly stickier
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The UK CAA will accept, and include in UK issued JAA licences, ratings from any JAA member state that is recommended for mutual recognition (see here). Just make sure that you include a copy of the FTO approval certificate and the examiner's authorisation with the application.
It would be quite a risk.
A while ago when I was looking at some non-UK schools who use UK CAA exam papers, I looked for a guarantee that their CAA will accept UK-sat exams. They all went strangely quiet at that point.
But only an idiot will proceed without being 100% sure. JAA doesn't exist anymore, AIUI.
