VFR On Top
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ice Station Zebra
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I apologise for butting in, but there does appear to be a major confusion between VFR and VMC as well as between IFR and IMC. I'm not a pilot so I do not have the fine detailed knowledge of your PPL. As far as I understand it (and I apologise if I am totally wrong) the basic PPL allows you to fly in conditions that are clear of cloud and in sight of the surface (with a forward vis of [I assume] 5km). These just happen to be the Visual Flight Rules for an aircraft with a filed airspeed of <140kts and below 3000'.
In legal terms (which I accept are not necessarily the same as your licence priveleges):-
Anybody can fly IFR as long as you remain in VMC.
You can fly IFR in VMC, but you can't fly VFR in IMC.
Don't confuse the flight rules that you are flying under with the met conditions you are flying in. One of the more irritating aspects of being an ATCO is asking a pilot his flight rules (to establish the services we can offer and to know the level of separation we have to apply) and then getting the response "G-CD is currently VMC."
Don't forget you can ask for a radar advisory service (RAS) whilst flying in VMC as long as you are flying under the instrument flight rules (ie IFR). However, you may be given vectors that you will not be able to accept (eg they will take you into cloud) if you are restricted to remaining clear of cloud/in sight of the suface, so defeating the object of the RAS in the first place.
In legal terms (which I accept are not necessarily the same as your licence priveleges):-
Anybody can fly IFR as long as you remain in VMC.
You can fly IFR in VMC, but you can't fly VFR in IMC.
Don't confuse the flight rules that you are flying under with the met conditions you are flying in. One of the more irritating aspects of being an ATCO is asking a pilot his flight rules (to establish the services we can offer and to know the level of separation we have to apply) and then getting the response "G-CD is currently VMC."
Don't forget you can ask for a radar advisory service (RAS) whilst flying in VMC as long as you are flying under the instrument flight rules (ie IFR). However, you may be given vectors that you will not be able to accept (eg they will take you into cloud) if you are restricted to remaining clear of cloud/in sight of the suface, so defeating the object of the RAS in the first place.
Join Date: Jan 1999
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One licence but umpteen sets of restrictions its a just a beanfeast for the burocrats !
Thanks to this JAA thing i now have to do two OPC checks and two IR renewals each year insted of one.
My aircraft is subject to a bunch of CAA additional AD,s most of them vast over reactions.
Perhaps it is time to pull down the union jack raise the stars and stripes take the FAA aircraft maintenance exam and change my pprune name to A and P.
[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: A and C ]
Thanks to this JAA thing i now have to do two OPC checks and two IR renewals each year insted of one.
My aircraft is subject to a bunch of CAA additional AD,s most of them vast over reactions.
Perhaps it is time to pull down the union jack raise the stars and stripes take the FAA aircraft maintenance exam and change my pprune name to A and P.
[ 02 December 2001: Message edited by: A and C ]
Join Date: May 2001
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Although anyone can fly IFR in VMC (outside of controlled airspace), I refer to IFR to mean someone with an instrument rating, on an IFR flight plan, who can comply with ATC instructions.
Cheers
Cheers
Join Date: Jul 1999
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It would seem that the old misunderstang still exists between VMC/IMC and VFR/IFR.
To clarify:
One may elect to fly under the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) or under the Visual Flight Rules (VFR) provided that one is flying in Visual Meteorological Conditions(VMC). However, if one is flying in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) one has no option but to fly under the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR).
The specific rules relating to flight under IFR and VFR are, of course, laid down in CAP 393 - The Air Navigation Order and Rules of the Air. But you knew that, didn't you??
To clarify:
One may elect to fly under the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) or under the Visual Flight Rules (VFR) provided that one is flying in Visual Meteorological Conditions(VMC). However, if one is flying in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) one has no option but to fly under the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR).
The specific rules relating to flight under IFR and VFR are, of course, laid down in CAP 393 - The Air Navigation Order and Rules of the Air. But you knew that, didn't you??
Join Date: Jan 2001
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englishal:
Its just that sort of reference that causes the misunderstanding of IFR/IMC and VFR/VMC.
Although anyone can fly IFR in VMC (outside of controlled airspace), I refer to IFR to mean someone with an instrument rating, on an IFR flight plan, who can comply with ATC instructions.
Join Date: May 2001
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Odi....No misuderstanding at all...you cannot fly IFR in IMC if your licence prohibits it (no IR or IMC). You can however fly IFR in VMC without an IR / IMC as you are actually still VFR. If you hold an IR or IMC you can fly IFR in IMC or VMC.
VFR = Visual flight rules
IFR = instrument flight rules
VMC = Visual Met conditions
IMC = Instrument Met conditions
Normally you don't get people wihout an IR or IMC filing IFR.
VFR = Visual flight rules
IFR = instrument flight rules
VMC = Visual Met conditions
IMC = Instrument Met conditions
Normally you don't get people wihout an IR or IMC filing IFR.
ENTREPPRUNEUR
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Although English Al is strictly wrong, he does have a point. You can't really fly in IFR unless you have a rating. You can go through the motions but if you have to avoid clouds then that's a VFR rule so you're just pretending really.
Anyway you should all get at least an IMC Rating. They're only £1k in Florida, so no excuse.
Anyway you should all get at least an IMC Rating. They're only £1k in Florida, so no excuse.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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My question is: Why the hell would you fly VFR on top?
If you're VFR on top the only way to navigate is dead reconing. I don't think many pilots will be succesfull navigate 300nm without propper verification. Ok, you can use your radio instruments, but they are not mandatory in VFR certified a/c.
If you realy want to fly above the clouds, get an IR. It is that easy.
If you're VFR on top the only way to navigate is dead reconing. I don't think many pilots will be succesfull navigate 300nm without propper verification. Ok, you can use your radio instruments, but they are not mandatory in VFR certified a/c.
If you realy want to fly above the clouds, get an IR. It is that easy.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
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TopFly - well I started this one so maybe I should answer the question.
The topic actually arose from my frustration that we Brits. with an IMC rating cannot legally fly "VFR on top" in Europe but our French counterparts with their basic JAA license can.
Ah well you may say why not do a PPL/IR. There is not a single training authority in the UK that provides the required course to cover the theoretical knowledge requirements, short of taking the full ATPL exams.
As too the general issue as too whether or not a pilot without some sort of IR should be flying "VFR on top", I would be inclined to agree that this might be unwise. However I gather this is not uncommon in the States or in Europe for that matter. Doubtless those with more experience than I might like to comment.
The topic actually arose from my frustration that we Brits. with an IMC rating cannot legally fly "VFR on top" in Europe but our French counterparts with their basic JAA license can.
Ah well you may say why not do a PPL/IR. There is not a single training authority in the UK that provides the required course to cover the theoretical knowledge requirements, short of taking the full ATPL exams.
As too the general issue as too whether or not a pilot without some sort of IR should be flying "VFR on top", I would be inclined to agree that this might be unwise. However I gather this is not uncommon in the States or in Europe for that matter. Doubtless those with more experience than I might like to comment.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: europe
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Some of the reasons to fly VFR on top.
To fly at an appropriate level for track.
To fly at suitable height for good coms and navaid reception
To keep clear of cloud, turbulance and icing.
To avoid flying in clag and granite.
To cross the UK coastline when sea mists invade.
To avoid miliary, restricted, nuclear zones etc etc etc.
To avoid local traffic around airfields.
To fly more safely.
To obey the French rules. Aircraft must be not less than 3300 ft above ground when overflying towns.
This assumes suitable climb and descent are available.
On the 300nm trip mentioned it would be a very good day when there was no indifferent weather anywhere en route.
The use of dead reconing for navigation would be the least preferred method.
To fly at an appropriate level for track.
To fly at suitable height for good coms and navaid reception
To keep clear of cloud, turbulance and icing.
To avoid flying in clag and granite.
To cross the UK coastline when sea mists invade.
To avoid miliary, restricted, nuclear zones etc etc etc.
To avoid local traffic around airfields.
To fly more safely.
To obey the French rules. Aircraft must be not less than 3300 ft above ground when overflying towns.
This assumes suitable climb and descent are available.
On the 300nm trip mentioned it would be a very good day when there was no indifferent weather anywhere en route.
The use of dead reconing for navigation would be the least preferred method.
