How to buy an aircraft?
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How to buy an aircraft?
Ok, sounds a silly question but I've never done it before and have a number of questions. I want to buy a used aircraft, so what is the best way to go about finding, and buying the aircraft I want?
Do I simply start trawling the classified ads for the aircraft I want, or look on some of the “aircraft for sale” websites, eg Controller, ASO, AVbuyer, aircraftdealer etc. or should I contact a dealer or trader for the type that I want? With the latter route, am I likely to get any sort of warranty for parts etc.?
Once I’ve found the aircraft I want, is there a standard set of enquiries to make ie like buying a house and is this done through solicitors like a house or just by email (like a car) and should I take a qualified engineer along (how much is that likely to cost?) to look at it for “obvious” defects common with that type? Then what, take it for a flight? What am I looking for, as an hour or “test” flight isn’t going to tell me anything much – or is it? Test the nav and coms, then what? What minimum paperwork should there be for the aircraft and avionics?
If I buy abroad, am I then looking at a fortune to have all my instruments certified for use in the UK? For a first purchase, would the advice be to avoid buying abroad unless it was done by a dealer who could do all the mod’s for the coms / nav?
When it comes to transfer of cash, again, is that done through a solicitor like it is with a house, or would a bank transfer suffice, like a car?
Basic questions I know but some pointers would be helpful, thanks.
Do I simply start trawling the classified ads for the aircraft I want, or look on some of the “aircraft for sale” websites, eg Controller, ASO, AVbuyer, aircraftdealer etc. or should I contact a dealer or trader for the type that I want? With the latter route, am I likely to get any sort of warranty for parts etc.?
Once I’ve found the aircraft I want, is there a standard set of enquiries to make ie like buying a house and is this done through solicitors like a house or just by email (like a car) and should I take a qualified engineer along (how much is that likely to cost?) to look at it for “obvious” defects common with that type? Then what, take it for a flight? What am I looking for, as an hour or “test” flight isn’t going to tell me anything much – or is it? Test the nav and coms, then what? What minimum paperwork should there be for the aircraft and avionics?
If I buy abroad, am I then looking at a fortune to have all my instruments certified for use in the UK? For a first purchase, would the advice be to avoid buying abroad unless it was done by a dealer who could do all the mod’s for the coms / nav?
When it comes to transfer of cash, again, is that done through a solicitor like it is with a house, or would a bank transfer suffice, like a car?
Basic questions I know but some pointers would be helpful, thanks.
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In a nutshell, you do a thorough prebuy inspection (with an engineer who knows the type well and who you trust), do a flight and make sure everything works, knock the price down by anything that needs fixing, knock the price down by anything that might be a can of worms, check for any liens (CAA?) and then you hand over the money and fly it away.
Buy the best you can afford, and leave yourself a decent amount left over for suprises
You have to be fairly careful because a lot of sellers are selling because they "know something"... I saw an absolutely astounding in-your-face crook not long ago who was selling a PA28 which had not flown for years and was so corroded the oil was leaking out of the engine. Some mug will pay the £40k asking price eventually.
The advertised prices tend to be some 20-30% too high for a quick sale, but this varies according to type, rarity etc.
Buy the best you can afford, and leave yourself a decent amount left over for suprises
You have to be fairly careful because a lot of sellers are selling because they "know something"... I saw an absolutely astounding in-your-face crook not long ago who was selling a PA28 which had not flown for years and was so corroded the oil was leaking out of the engine. Some mug will pay the £40k asking price eventually.
The advertised prices tend to be some 20-30% too high for a quick sale, but this varies according to type, rarity etc.
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Is there any difference between buying from a private seller to a dealer - or more the point, any disadvantage to buying with either?
Is the purchase then done through solicitors or do you just agree a date for the transfer of the dosh then pitch up and fly it away?
Is the purchase then done through solicitors or do you just agree a date for the transfer of the dosh then pitch up and fly it away?
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I've only ever bought one aeroplane. It wasn't terribly expensive (in absolute terms, it nearly broke me though 
) and that was done exactly as you would do it for a car:
Person to person, private deal, no solicitors, no complications, just turn up with a load of dosh after an inspection (did it myself) and a test flight (didn't have a PPL at the time...)!
Now, how that would work on something a bit more valuable, I don't know!
) and that was done exactly as you would do it for a car:Person to person, private deal, no solicitors, no complications, just turn up with a load of dosh after an inspection (did it myself) and a test flight (didn't have a PPL at the time...)!
Now, how that would work on something a bit more valuable, I don't know!
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I am not aware of any advantage of buying via a dealer.
In any case, most used piston GA dealer sales are gone on a broker/commission only; the dealer has prob99 never seen the aircraft, and he just gets a slice of the proceeds, in return for running ads in various mags, websites, etc.
No solicitors are involved unless you are doing more complicated stuff, or you are selling to somebody obnoxious and you don't want to deal with him directly
The prebuy check is vital.
What are you buying?
In any case, most used piston GA dealer sales are gone on a broker/commission only; the dealer has prob99 never seen the aircraft, and he just gets a slice of the proceeds, in return for running ads in various mags, websites, etc.
No solicitors are involved unless you are doing more complicated stuff, or you are selling to somebody obnoxious and you don't want to deal with him directly
The prebuy check is vital.
What are you buying?
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So, no sale contract, no paperwork etc.!? Just a hand written receipt saying "received the sum of X for G-XXXX" sounds very informal for what could be exchange of a lot of dosh? The prebuy check you refer to, I assume would be the check done by your engineer?
Is there any particular paperwork you (or your engineer) would insist on seeing? Obviously tech log and nav / coms stuff but would you insist on seeing invoices for all work done?
I'm not quite at the stage of buying this minute IO, but will be looking for a Commander 114.
Are there are resident Commander "experts" on here, or that anyone can recommend?
Is there any particular paperwork you (or your engineer) would insist on seeing? Obviously tech log and nav / coms stuff but would you insist on seeing invoices for all work done?
I'm not quite at the stage of buying this minute IO, but will be looking for a Commander 114.
Are there are resident Commander "experts" on here, or that anyone can recommend?
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Well, yes, there should be a simple contract stating what you are buying and how much is being paid for it. Otherwise, the seller could cash your cheque and then pretend it was a private loan, repayable in 10 years' time
Much and much has been written on this topic in the past but basically you do a very thorough inspection, with all inspection covers removed. Plugs out and cylinders borescoped, especially if there is the slightest possibility (which there will always be) of the plane having sat for ages at some stage (many for-sale have been, which is why they are for sale). Obviously all ADs checked both in logbooks and on the plane itself.
On the test flight, all avionics checked including all autopilot modes. What you are buying is a nontrivial machine.
How old is it, total time, equipment, etc? Email me if preferred. In fact I think you have my details but I can't tie up your nickname to your real name
Much and much has been written on this topic in the past but basically you do a very thorough inspection, with all inspection covers removed. Plugs out and cylinders borescoped, especially if there is the slightest possibility (which there will always be) of the plane having sat for ages at some stage (many for-sale have been, which is why they are for sale). Obviously all ADs checked both in logbooks and on the plane itself.
On the test flight, all avionics checked including all autopilot modes. What you are buying is a nontrivial machine.
How old is it, total time, equipment, etc? Email me if preferred. In fact I think you have my details but I can't tie up your nickname to your real name
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There are a lot of specific questions, which could save you the waste of a prebuy check on a no hoper, but (as IO said) we will need the type and approx age to advise.
Rod1
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A new aircraft
Having bought it,what does one do next re registration etc?
Our group have just bought an airworthy, permitted aircraft,(we already have one flying of a different type)
I am the secretary of the group and our original aircraft is registered with me.
What do I do about the "new" one?
Obviously it has to be registered with CAA,but how do I do this?
I could give them a call,but would appreciate any advice on here first.
Lister
Our group have just bought an airworthy, permitted aircraft,(we already have one flying of a different type)
I am the secretary of the group and our original aircraft is registered with me.
What do I do about the "new" one?
Obviously it has to be registered with CAA,but how do I do this?
I could give them a call,but would appreciate any advice on here first.
Lister
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Lister,
Print out & complete form CA1 which you can get from here:-
Form CA1: Registration of Aircraft or Change of Ownership | Publications | CAA
Send it off along with the correct fee and the existing registration documnent which should have been signed over to yourself by the previous owner, (section on back of document), previous owner may have sent this off to the CAA for you already.
Changeover should only take a few days and you can keep an eye on it on GINFO.
Hope this helps!
Regards
UA
Print out & complete form CA1 which you can get from here:-
Form CA1: Registration of Aircraft or Change of Ownership | Publications | CAA
Send it off along with the correct fee and the existing registration documnent which should have been signed over to yourself by the previous owner, (section on back of document), previous owner may have sent this off to the CAA for you already.
Changeover should only take a few days and you can keep an eye on it on GINFO.
Hope this helps!
Regards
UA
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VMC-on-top: It's also recommended that you do a mortgage search on an aircraft before you commit to purchasing it (CAA Form CA350 Form CA350: Search of the UK Register of Aircraft Mortages | Publications | CAA). It costs £25 but could save you considerably more if you accidentally purchase an aircraft with a mortgage that hasn't been completed by the previous owner!
Lister: Unusual Attitude is spot on regarding the CA1 form - provided this is complete correctly along with payment, and the previous owner's Certificate of Registration (CA71) has been signed on the back then it should be fairly smooth. Not forgetting proof of insurance at the same time, unless you've declared that the aircraft won't be flown.
Another thing to consider if there's a group of you is whether you all want to appear on the registration document, or whether you're going to nominate you or someone else within the group as the group trustee. The advtange of nominating a trustee is that all future correspondence goes straight to them, and your only obligation if someone enters/leaves the group is that you notify the CAA using the trustee grid http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/122/trusteegridblank.pdf. You'll also need to complete this grid when you send in your initial application. If you don't want to nominate a trustee and would all like to appear on the Certificate of Registration, then you need to bear in mind that you'll have to apply for (and pay for) a change of ownership whenever someone joins/leaves the group.
Lister: Unusual Attitude is spot on regarding the CA1 form - provided this is complete correctly along with payment, and the previous owner's Certificate of Registration (CA71) has been signed on the back then it should be fairly smooth. Not forgetting proof of insurance at the same time, unless you've declared that the aircraft won't be flown.
Another thing to consider if there's a group of you is whether you all want to appear on the registration document, or whether you're going to nominate you or someone else within the group as the group trustee. The advtange of nominating a trustee is that all future correspondence goes straight to them, and your only obligation if someone enters/leaves the group is that you notify the CAA using the trustee grid http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/122/trusteegridblank.pdf. You'll also need to complete this grid when you send in your initial application. If you don't want to nominate a trustee and would all like to appear on the Certificate of Registration, then you need to bear in mind that you'll have to apply for (and pay for) a change of ownership whenever someone joins/leaves the group.
Reminds me of an old joke
Q What is the second happiest day in an aircraft owners life ?
A The day he takes possesion of his aircraft
Q What is the happiest day of an aircraft owners life ?
A The day the buyer takes possesion of his aircraft
Seriously though I think it is important to make some long term decisons before you start looking. Why and how are you going to use your aircraft. If the aircraft is a stepping stone to a larger more capable aircraft then the resaleabilty is probably the most important consideration. Airplanes are very easy to buy but very easy to sell. Find a 6 month old issue of pilot and compare the adds to this months issue. I bet you will find many of the same aircraft advertised. On the other hand if you are winding down into retirement and this will be your last aircraft than the long term maintainabilty is more important (ie where are the parts going to be sourced and what will be the maintainance scheme used).
If asked for advice on the subject I have a few general rules
1) Buy the best airplane ( ie good engine, good radios, good, paint interior, good maintainace history) you can find as it will be the cheapest most hassle free choice in the long term
2) Private airplanes don't wear out , they die of neglect from lack of use. An airplane flown regularly will always be a better deal than one with long periods of sitting
3) Keeping an aircraft inside does more than keep the paint shiny, it protects every system in the aircraft from deterioration. An aircraft that has always been hangered will always be better than one which had been left outside for 30 years.
4) The maintaince records don't just detail the work done they give you insight into the mentality of the owner. Evidence of regular work at the same establishment with snags fixed inbetween inspections is evidence of a carefull and conciensous owner. Spotty records from ahost of different shops are the opposite.
5) Stay away from odd ball, low production, orphaned aircraft. They may be cheap to buy, but everything after that will be difficult and expensive.
Q What is the second happiest day in an aircraft owners life ?
A The day he takes possesion of his aircraft
Q What is the happiest day of an aircraft owners life ?
A The day the buyer takes possesion of his aircraft
Seriously though I think it is important to make some long term decisons before you start looking. Why and how are you going to use your aircraft. If the aircraft is a stepping stone to a larger more capable aircraft then the resaleabilty is probably the most important consideration. Airplanes are very easy to buy but very easy to sell. Find a 6 month old issue of pilot and compare the adds to this months issue. I bet you will find many of the same aircraft advertised. On the other hand if you are winding down into retirement and this will be your last aircraft than the long term maintainabilty is more important (ie where are the parts going to be sourced and what will be the maintainance scheme used).
If asked for advice on the subject I have a few general rules
1) Buy the best airplane ( ie good engine, good radios, good, paint interior, good maintainace history) you can find as it will be the cheapest most hassle free choice in the long term
2) Private airplanes don't wear out , they die of neglect from lack of use. An airplane flown regularly will always be a better deal than one with long periods of sitting
3) Keeping an aircraft inside does more than keep the paint shiny, it protects every system in the aircraft from deterioration. An aircraft that has always been hangered will always be better than one which had been left outside for 30 years.
4) The maintaince records don't just detail the work done they give you insight into the mentality of the owner. Evidence of regular work at the same establishment with snags fixed inbetween inspections is evidence of a carefull and conciensous owner. Spotty records from ahost of different shops are the opposite.
5) Stay away from odd ball, low production, orphaned aircraft. They may be cheap to buy, but everything after that will be difficult and expensive.
