Mode S
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From: NW
Mode S
Ok, before anyone shoots me down, or makes comment like "Have you searched the forums" or Google, etc, which have been done, I will apologise in advance in case it has been missed.
What is the latest on Mode S?
What is the latest on Mode S?
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: UK
Mode S Home Page | Mode S | Airspace Policy
But you won't find anything new since December 2009 (which was after the CAA consultation/final decision process).
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From: EuroGA.org
It's not possible to answer a one-liner like
What is the latest on Mode S?
But if you want a one-liner...
For IFR you have to carry it. Done and dusted, more or less.
For VFR you don't have to, in some places, but the full story is complicated.
I'd say that the full story is so complicated that anybody doing any serious VFR abroad, VFR in CAS, or any IFR, may as well fit it rather than try to dig out the constantly varying exemptions list.
What is the latest on Mode S?
But if you want a one-liner...
For IFR you have to carry it. Done and dusted, more or less.
For VFR you don't have to, in some places, but the full story is complicated.
I'd say that the full story is so complicated that anybody doing any serious VFR abroad, VFR in CAS, or any IFR, may as well fit it rather than try to dig out the constantly varying exemptions list.
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From: Wildest Surrey
'What's the latest on Mode S'?
It's an unnecessary waste of money as only a very few ATC units can make use of the extra information.(LARS units the ones who need it most - generally don't have the necessary software)
Second thoughts we all knew that years ago so it's not the latest.
It's an unnecessary waste of money as only a very few ATC units can make use of the extra information.(LARS units the ones who need it most - generally don't have the necessary software)
Second thoughts we all knew that years ago so it's not the latest.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: NW
You could check the CAA's Mode-S homepage:
Mode S Home Page | Mode S | Airspace Policy
But you won't find anything new since December 2009 (which was after the CAA consultation/final decision process).
That is why I asked the question, after all this is a rumour network.
Mode S Home Page | Mode S | Airspace Policy
But you won't find anything new since December 2009 (which was after the CAA consultation/final decision process).
That is why I asked the question, after all this is a rumour network.
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Midlands
Do you have an existing Mode C transponder? If so, have you had any issues in the last 12 months? If not, then hang on until March 2012, when things will change as far as TMZ access is concerned. T toured France in the Summer (no mode s specific restrictions) Mode s equipped aircraft seemed very few and far between.
Rod1
Rod1
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From: In the boot of my car!
Mode s equipped aircraft seemed very few and far between.
Mode S is here to stay simply for the reason that the people who count ie IFR traffic have all gone Mode S
What Joe Bloggs bumps around with below CAS has remained an irrelevance.
You say few and far between but not up in the airways.
The costs of changing again would be massive so until something SIGNIFICANTLY better comes along its here to stay for no other reason than thats where everyone went.
Pace
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From: UK
chevvron wrote,
But for those that currently can, and more will follow, that extra information is worth its weight in gold and is allowing significant safety nets to be added to the system. I would hate to go back to being without it.
For a retired air traffic person you have a very backward point of view, one that should not be thought of as representative.
It's an unnecessary waste of money as only a very few ATC units can make use of the extra information.
For a retired air traffic person you have a very backward point of view, one that should not be thought of as representative.
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From: Midlands
Pace
My apologies, I should have made it clear I was talking VFR. I agree with what you say with one slight caveat. The CAA plan includes what it called phase 3 of the process. This was ADSB using ES on mode S. The most popular mode s transponder in the UK by far is the Garmin GTX 328, which is also the only one which does not support ES so cannot be used for ADSB. There is a very real risk that people who have fitted the GTX 328 (at a typical cost inc installation of £2500 ish) will have to throw it away and replace it!
One other issue is cost. It is now possible to get a mode s unit for about £1250 inc vat (with ES). Seven years ago when I was designing and building my panel I was quoted £4500. I got a second hand mode a/c as a stopgap, which is still working fine and has saved me a lot of cash. There is at least one company who are developing a transponder, which can be remote controlled from an EFIS, so is not panel mounted and has no user interface. Target price for that last time I looked was £600.
Add up the cost saving and the regulatory situation and it can be a good idea to wait and see. I have been in this mode for 4 years and expect to stay in it until at least March 2012.
Rod1
My apologies, I should have made it clear I was talking VFR. I agree with what you say with one slight caveat. The CAA plan includes what it called phase 3 of the process. This was ADSB using ES on mode S. The most popular mode s transponder in the UK by far is the Garmin GTX 328, which is also the only one which does not support ES so cannot be used for ADSB. There is a very real risk that people who have fitted the GTX 328 (at a typical cost inc installation of £2500 ish) will have to throw it away and replace it!
One other issue is cost. It is now possible to get a mode s unit for about £1250 inc vat (with ES). Seven years ago when I was designing and building my panel I was quoted £4500. I got a second hand mode a/c as a stopgap, which is still working fine and has saved me a lot of cash. There is at least one company who are developing a transponder, which can be remote controlled from an EFIS, so is not panel mounted and has no user interface. Target price for that last time I looked was £600.
Add up the cost saving and the regulatory situation and it can be a good idea to wait and see. I have been in this mode for 4 years and expect to stay in it until at least March 2012.
Rod1
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From: now in Zomerset
It is now possible to get a mode s unit for about £1250 inc vat (with ES). Seven years ago when I was designing and building my panel I was quoted £4500.
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From: Paper Street
It's an unnecessary waste of money as only a very few ATC units can make use of the extra information.
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From: Wildest Surrey
No listing as far as I know. And as far as I know, only the NATS control centres have it, the necessary display equipment not being cost effective for most airport authorities ie 'nice to have but not essential so the cost cannot be justified'.
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From: Netherlands
Of course, in your little aircraft you don't have the issue of CAA mod fees. The last time I asked the cost is still around £4k for my Robin
If you have a KT76A or KT78A and your Robin is in the approval list from Trig all paper work is done.
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From: UK
A while back I estimated putting a Mode S transponder in as almost £4K as the only way to make room for it is to replace the panel and some of the other instruments with smaller ones. £4K is over 30% of the value of the glider. I have no idea where EASA is with this either - certainly there is no schedule for a transponder from the maker, who now no longer manufacture gliders.
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From: Surrey
But for those that currently can, and more will follow, that extra information is worth its weight in gold and is allowing significant safety nets to be added to the system. I would hate to go back to being without it.
For a retired air traffic person you have a very backward point of view, one that should not be thought of as representative.
For a retired air traffic person you have a very backward point of view, one that should not be thought of as representative.
For us folk who don't fly Kingairs or TBM850s and don't hold in the London TMA stacks, perchance what is the 'extra information that is worth its weight in gold' ?
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From: UK
For us folk who don't fly Kingairs or TBM850s and don't hold in the London TMA stacks, perchance what is the 'extra information that is worth its weight in gold' ?
Mode S also allows certain other developments on the radar display itself that, for technical reasons, would not be possible without Mode S being used.
These allow a selection of current safety tools to work very effectively with new ones also in the pipe line. These significantly enhance the safety of the overall ATC system. Whilst they may not all be totally relevant to you in your light aircraft I assume you do want to see an overall safe(er) operation. I imagine most Cherokee etc pilots also take the odd commercial flight.
To the best of my knowledge only Scottish and London Centres are currently using Mode S data, the latter does include all the approach control units for the major London airports.
Chevvron may not like it, but the inescapable fact remains that Mode S has since 2005 realised some of the most significant safety benefits to the UK ATC system for many a year and is here to stay.
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From: Surrey
Roffa,
The use of enhanced mode-s in high density airspace has some clear advantages. However, those benefits have no relationship to equipping aircraft with elementary mode S. I am sure Chevvron recognises the advantages of having altitude preselect downlinked, the ability of your stack vertical view to work and all of the other features which make life in the TMA better. HOWEVER, for us folk who go less than 250 knots, don't have flight management systems, and who don't have altitude preselect and as such down link nothing other than our flight ID - to my knowledge you get zero value from our Mode - S transponders beyond what you already had from mode C - And I suspect this is why Chevvron has made the comment he has.
The logic that because I sometimes go commercial means I should spend money on a nil value upgrade doesn't really grab me. However, at least it is consistent with EASA's view of the world!
And having 10,000+ people each spend £3-4k (something like 40 million quid) for no benefit seems like a poor idea. At a minimum they could give me the money and I would be able to run a couple of Mode-S enhanced Kingairs for a number of years
The use of enhanced mode-s in high density airspace has some clear advantages. However, those benefits have no relationship to equipping aircraft with elementary mode S. I am sure Chevvron recognises the advantages of having altitude preselect downlinked, the ability of your stack vertical view to work and all of the other features which make life in the TMA better. HOWEVER, for us folk who go less than 250 knots, don't have flight management systems, and who don't have altitude preselect and as such down link nothing other than our flight ID - to my knowledge you get zero value from our Mode - S transponders beyond what you already had from mode C - And I suspect this is why Chevvron has made the comment he has.
The logic that because I sometimes go commercial means I should spend money on a nil value upgrade doesn't really grab me. However, at least it is consistent with EASA's view of the world!
And having 10,000+ people each spend £3-4k (something like 40 million quid) for no benefit seems like a poor idea. At a minimum they could give me the money and I would be able to run a couple of Mode-S enhanced Kingairs for a number of years