Can you do a JAA SE IR in a Seneca?

[IO540]

If EASA did force the acquisition of JAA papers to continue flying N-reg in Europe, one option I am looking at is in a certain warm country...

However they seem to only operate twins.

They say the "output" qualification will be ME but can one do a SE IR checkride in a twin?

I have no interest whatever in ever flying a twin. If I wanted much more capability I would buy a SE turboprop... especially given the forthcoming EASA hassle on ME TPs.

[S-Works]

No. But a ME/IR will cover you for SE automatically and when you renew you just renew in a SE and let the ME lapse.

To do the training in a ME you will by default end up with an MEP/IR.

[Katamarino]

I am also planning to convert my FAA IR to a JAA IR (SEP). I'd be very interested to hear of any particularly good leads you come across, IO540!

[Contacttower]

I am also planning to convert my FAA IR to a JAA IR (SEP). I'd be very interested to hear of any particularly good leads you come across, IO540!

Is it also true that it's only the UK that requires the 15hrs conversion? Do other JAA countries just allow you to do the written exams and just sit the test?

[Katamarino]

I'm actually a UK expat and would be doing it in the UK; but from what I have seen, you require a similar conversion here in Holland.

[IO540]

Reportedly, Switzerland does not need the 15hrs.

Whether you have any chance of passing an IR test without a thorough introduction to the examiner's peccadiloes by an instructor who knows him intimately, is another matter

In the UK, the IR test is highly structured, with the routes selected according to the school's location (obviously), and I suppose a number of informal flights with a mate who happens to be a real IRI would do the job, but how will you find such a chap in Switzerland?

So I don't think the 15hrs is a major item. It is just the overall hassle package. The stupid 7 exams which are full of total crap. Even if you self study, you need a signoff to sit them, which costs about £1000+VAT. Again, £1000 is not a big deal, one might argue. The £1000 gets you access to the question bank, but I believe you can get that on bit-torrent (if anybody has got it, please email me ).

I have so far homed in on two "warm Europe" options, within easy Easyjet range. One of them sounds promising but it is ME only, which is OK but obviously costs more (time and money), and the other one is OK if you don't mind them not replying to emails (they quoted me 6k euros for a conversion to a SE IR & ME IR, in a DA42, but I understand that DA42 has since gone the way of many other Thielert DA42s...... their runway is ~ 3000m so maybe they do SE takeoffs?).

Currently investigating the first one; they have the usual clapped out piston twins.

Only the UK, AFAIK, requires the plane to be modified with the silly screens. Everybody else does it under the hood. This may seem a silly sentiment but I would be somewhat nervous about the screens, in case of an emergency. Especially as I fly an N-reg and for an N-reg the only option is the UK, and the UK examiner is less than likely to be all that current in a TB20.

[Contacttower]

Especially as I fly an N-reg and for an N-reg the only option is the UK, and the UK examiner is less than likely to be all that current in a TB20.

Is that because no other European JAA state allows the test to be taken on N-reg?

[IO540]

None I have found so far.

One school I found in Holland was recommended to me as able to do it but they never replied to any communications. I could have got a local to talk to them but could not be bothered to climb up hills right at the start

This is less of an issue for an IR conversion, due to the small # of hours spent flying (you can do quite a bit in a sim) and if there is an engine failure involved, you want them to crack their cylinders, not yours.

[Shorrick Mk2]

"In the UK, the IR test is highly structured, with the routes selected according to the school's location (obviously), and I suppose a number of informal flights with a mate who happens to be a real IRI would do the job, but how will you find such a chap in Switzerland?"

My instructor is a real Swiss IRI / examiner. Pretty nice chap too. Don't know whether he's current on the TB20 tho. I do not know whether the club's DA40s are IFR, but the PA-32 certainly is.

[S-Works]

I will just point out that the UK CAA can and do refuse to accept skill tests for the IR conducted in other countries for the addition to a UK licence if they do not believe the standards are in line with the UK.

I would suggest that you contact the UK CAA prior to embarking on an out of theatre course and ensure that they will accept the training and test from another country.

[IO540]

Or get a PPL from the same country where you got the IR.....

This can be done for under 10 euros in most "relevant" places. Greece for example converts a UK JAA PPL to a Greek JAA PPL for 6 euros.

This will satisfy any EASA requirement, especially in the context here which is to simply collect a (really totally pointless) duplicate set of Euro papers, in case the present EASA anti-N-reg proposals do make it through the Euro parliamentary / lobbying process, and the present 15hr conversion route disappears in the meantime.

I don't personally believe this (especially both of the above things) will happen and my money is on this proposal melting down but if it does happen it will happen only at the last minute (for obvious face saving reasons) and in aviation we already collect enough useless bits of paper "just in case" (like my FAA CPL which is worth a chocolate teapot in Europe, but I always knew that).

I don't suppose the UK CAA is very happy about the foreign options but there is nothing they can do.

Last I heard from somebody who actually tried to attach another JAA IR to a UK PPL (rather than someone who is just repeating old dark rumours) he got it done following a letter to the CAA from his solicitor, reminding them of their obligations under JAA

One needs to make sure a UK medical is good for that country's PPL, however, otherwise you have to travel to that country for a medical renewal. I don't know the issues here but there has been some funny business with France, IIRC. But nobody would do the IR in France...

[S-Works]

There are no longer any obligations under JAA as JAA no longer exists. It is entirely within the remit of any state to refuse the training of another.

I would also suggest you look up the rules on state of issue for a JAR licence. You can't just get another JAR licence issued by paying a fee when you already hold one. You need to do a state of registry change and meet the requirements for it.

Glad to see you have become an overnight JAA expert.

[IO540]

You can't just get another JAR licence issued by paying a fee when you already hold one.

True but not relevant because you can fly any EU-reg plane on any JAA PPL, so losing one's UK JAA PPL doesn't matter.

If EASA mandates the acquisition of EASA PPL/IR paperwork to continue flying an N-reg (because the N-reg is operated by a EU resident entity) then any EASA PPL/IR issued anywhere will meet the requirement. What the UK CAA thinks of those particular papers will be irrelevant. If Albania is JAR-FCL (I think it is) then an Albanian issued PPL/IR would do just fine for flying an N-reg all over the EU, on an FAA PPL/IR as at present.

One would have those papers purely to make the operation legal i.e. to maintain the insurance cover in case of a claim. There will be no possible ramp enforcement because there will be no practical way to check the operator's EU residence status. It's all a load of crap.

[Whopity]

so losing one's UK JAA PPL doesn't matter.

Unless you reside there more than 185 days a year!

the licence holder may subsequently
transfer a licence issued by the State of licence
issue to another JAA Member State, provided that
employment or normal residency is established in
that State (see JAR–FCL 1.070).

The UK CAA accept JAA IR training wherever its completed if the FTO is JAA approved. They may not accept IR tests conducted in another State if the training was not conducted there.

[IO540]

Unless you reside there more than 185 days a year!

Why would that be a problem?

Presumably, if say one had an Albanian JAA PPL/IR but lives in the UK, one could then convert the whole thing to a UK PPL/IR?

They may not accept IR tests conducted in another State if the training was not conducted there.

I would not be suprised; in fact (from my enquiries) I would be amazed if any country was willing to do an IR test without doing the training at their FTO.

About the only thing I have found anybody accepting from another country was the ground exams, which everybody seems to accept from the CAA at Gatwick.

For non-JAA IRs one can get an IR without doing training there, but then (an obvious circular statement) the IR is not a JAA one. This stuff is in the realm of FAA/ICAO to Euro (non-JAA) conversions and these are certainly still available but are not very useful to most people.

[S-Works]

Is that because no other European JAA state allows the test to be taken on N-reg?

It would require the examiner to be dual qualified in order to receive remuneration for the flight in an N reg. With the desire by the NAA to do away with the N reg it would hardly be politically correct to be seen to be supporting them......

[Fuji Abound]

If this happens to state the obvious it will have a significant impact on GA N reg operators. I suspect a lot of N reg operators have allowed their CAA / JAA licences to lapse. They have also spent considerable time, effort and money obtaining N reg PPLs and, some, IRs. I wonder whether pilots will be prepared to keep both licences going if these changes take place, when the main advantage of operating on the N reg will have vanished.

It also surprises me that those who have gone to this effort seem rather to relaxed about allowing these changes to occur. It seems to me in the GA arena there are thousands of pilots over Europe operating on N reg FAA IRs. There would seem to be no safety case why they should not continue to do so, and many have doubtless done so for years. This would seem to be a powerful lobbying group, if only they would take the time to gather themselves together.

It does seem to be fundamentally wrong that changes such as these should be enforced when it prevents pilots from exercising rights they have enjoyed for years and where these is no safety case what so ever that these rights should be restricted.

I find it particularly disappointing that I sense an element of self satisfaction on this thread and others presumably from those who have not gone the FAA route that the FAA fraternity will / may be finally kicked into touch whereas as a GA pilots we should be supporting each other. In reality unless there is a simplified IR the consequence of these changes will be to further diminish the number of GA pilots operating in Europe with an IR which will be to the detriment of safety. I simply dont except that pilots will follow the EASA route instead because there has been no evidence in the past that they would.

I am not in the slightest interested what commercial operators do and I am not sure why that creeps into these discussions. This is a GA forum. Whether or not commercial pilots are able and willing to spend £x on converting their FAA licences is entirely academic to us as a community. Whether or not private GA pilots who self finance these costs should be required to do so is the relevant issue.

If I could be bothered (and I cant) I would have the matter up before the European parliament.

[S-Works]

Why would that be a problem?

Presumably, if say one had an Albanian JAA PPL/IR but lives in the UK, one could then convert the whole thing to a UK PPL/IR

JAR FCL 1.07 refers here Peter.

In order for you to exchange your UK JAA PPL for an Albanian or any other countries JAA PPL then you would need to be a resident for more than 185 days or be employed by an AOC operator from that country. You can't just change the state of issue of your licence on a convenience.

So in your case, you have a UK JAA PPL and to add an IR to it from another JAA country then you would need to establish that the country, the FTO and the examination are acceptable to the UK CAA in order for them to accept it and issue the IR on your UK PPL. You will also need to ensure that the exams will be acceptable. As far as I am aware you have to do the exams in the same country as they training.

Anecdotal evidence of past cases where an NAA have threatened with a solicitors letter does not make a case. We both no where that story came from and how old it was. I would suggest that things are a little different when dealing with the UK CAA.

You have a straight road in front of you, do the exams, do the 15hrs training and do the skill test. Or are you that afraid that you have become so dependant on your cockpit gadgets that you need to try and find a shortcut somewhere?

None of this is rocket science and a for a bright guy like you should be a no brainer.

[IO540]

Fuji

I agree with your assessment.

However I think it is not hard to renew a JAA PPL, especially if lapsed less than 5 years (I have renewed mine with one flight for under £100). Doing combined medicals costs no more than doing one (I run both CAA and FAA class 1s purely as insurance).

It is the IR that is a lot more work. Some have found it easy but the generally older members of the private IR population don't have the fact swatting memory they might have had when they were younger, and it is clear from some recent attempts that many cannot get through the exams without a lot of work.

The commercial angle is IMHO relevant because most corporate jets are N-reg (or other FAA-based registers like Caymans) and that is where a lot more work will be involved due to the 14 exams, and also the aircraft owners have a lot more political clout. It is generally believed that the UK DfT's 2005 proposal to boot out N-regs after 90 days' parking was stopped by jet operators - not by UK GA which has no real voice at the top political level.

And yes if this did seriously shrink the N-reg population then we will lose the majority of IR private pilots in Europe.

I would have the matter up before the European parliament.

That is where real lobbying is taking place. Not responding to EASA proposals on their website.

You have a straight road in front of you, do the exams, do the 15hrs training and do the skill test. Or are you that afraid that you have become so dependant on your cockpit gadgets that you need to try and find a shortcut somewhere?

Usual bollox from bose-x (I am not going to type out his long list of "qualifications" again) who sent me a threatening PM when I obliquely referred to a potentially useful European based shortcut recently... as it happens I was there the other day and it isn't useful at all.

[S-Works]

Usual bollox from bose-x (I am not going to type out his long list of "qualifications" again) who sent me a threatening PM when I obliquely referred to a potentially useful European based shortcut recently... as it happens I was there the other day and it isn't useful at all.

Always the same with you Peter, turn to abuse and insults and lies when someone tries to help you. I have given you the reference that your require and told you how it works under JAR. Just because you don't like what you hear does not give you a right to start mudslinging.

It amazes me how you continuously look to try and find a short cut on what is a simple path. If you want to add an IR to your UK PPL then you merely need to meet the requirements. If you want to do it overseas then it has to be in a country and at a facility acceptable to the UK CAA. Not difficult is it?

Fuji, While I think the loss of the FAA IR as tool in Europe would be sad, I do have to admit to a certain degree of schadenfreude having said this was coming a number of years ago and being told very vehemently a certain poster why I was wrong and there would be enough political clout to overcome it.......