Taildraggers v Tricycles
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Taildraggers v Tricycles
Tin plane pilots' comments regarding a rag & tube plane (Cub)
1. Where is the stall warner? It doesn't need one. It tells you when it wants to stop flying.
2. How do you fly without radios? I use the wings.
3. How do you talk to ATC? I don't.
4. How does the engine start with no starter? I turn the propellor in the appropriate direction.
5. Where are the toe brakes? Under my heels.
6. Doesn't it fall on it's nose when there's no nose wheel? Only if I press the brakes hard enough.
Crosswind landings are character building in a taildragger!!!!
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
1. Where is the stall warner? It doesn't need one. It tells you when it wants to stop flying.
2. How do you fly without radios? I use the wings.
3. How do you talk to ATC? I don't.
4. How does the engine start with no starter? I turn the propellor in the appropriate direction.
5. Where are the toe brakes? Under my heels.
6. Doesn't it fall on it's nose when there's no nose wheel? Only if I press the brakes hard enough.
Crosswind landings are character building in a taildragger!!!!
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
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Last year I had the honour of doing a tailwheel conversion onto a J3 Cub. The instructor is a well-known colourful character. The Cub also happens to be his personal pride and joy.
The intercom system consists of a mad Welshman tapping me on the shoulder, and either shouting "Well done, Son" or "Stop stirring the bl00dy stick, Son".
Like LowNSlow says, there's not much to look at inside the aircraft, and I realised that it's possible to fly a circuit with my eyes looking away from the instruments.
Incidentally, the fuel-gauge is a bent piece of wire with a cork on the end, which sticks through the filler-cap on the nose. It bobs up and down during circuits. Cute.
I still fondly recall the many hours of struggling with take-offs (zig-zagging, left and right and left again) and landings (bounce, bounce, splat).
It was yellow with big fat wheels. Sigh.
The best experience of my life. As soon as I save up a few quid, I'm going to buy one.
The intercom system consists of a mad Welshman tapping me on the shoulder, and either shouting "Well done, Son" or "Stop stirring the bl00dy stick, Son".
Like LowNSlow says, there's not much to look at inside the aircraft, and I realised that it's possible to fly a circuit with my eyes looking away from the instruments.
Incidentally, the fuel-gauge is a bent piece of wire with a cork on the end, which sticks through the filler-cap on the nose. It bobs up and down during circuits. Cute.
I still fondly recall the many hours of struggling with take-offs (zig-zagging, left and right and left again) and landings (bounce, bounce, splat).
It was yellow with big fat wheels. Sigh.
The best experience of my life. As soon as I save up a few quid, I'm going to buy one.
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Well said Low&Slow.I agree. Tailwheel aeroplanes are real aeroplanes. Ground handling is a challange at first but once the fear of the much talked about "Ground-Loop" is overcome they are a delight to fly.Nosewheel planes are like driving cars, not aeroplanes.
I fly a Tiger Moth and although I love it greatly I must admit that it is not a "go anywhere-anytime" aeroplane and that spinning thing on the front is quite scary to swing.
Cheers.
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TrickWoo, everybody who has been up in the Cub comes back with a big grin platered over their faces! A friend who was doing his PPL on C152's was amazed at the differrence. I agree about the landings. When I first started (and since) my landings were sufficiently interesting to get me the nickname Tigger!
Tigerman, hand starting can be fun can't it! I'm always grateful if some brave person offers to give me a swing when the engine is warm. I don't have impulse mags (soon to be rectified) so kick backs are a regular feature of the proceedings, usually followed by lots of words containing the letter F.....
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
Tigerman, hand starting can be fun can't it! I'm always grateful if some brave person offers to give me a swing when the engine is warm. I don't have impulse mags (soon to be rectified) so kick backs are a regular feature of the proceedings, usually followed by lots of words containing the letter F.....
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
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I'd been flying a J-3 for a year or so. One Saturday, I set off from the hangar at RAF Wyton and headed off down the taxiway; into wind, straight as a die. When I reached the runway, only one wheel brake was working! Now the Cub's brakes are not brilliant at the best of times, which has probably saved a lot of props, but this was unworkable. I had to creep back to the hangar (about 1/2 a mile or so) continually being flicked through 180 degrees by the tail-wind. When I finally got back dizzy, embarrassed and with an aching right leg, the crash-crew met me in near-hysterics. I loved that aeroplane...
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Rightstuffer, that sounds very entertaining, you should have charged for viewing. You're right about the brakes. Whoever thought of inner tubes full of hydraulic fluid pressing blocks against a drum? Light, yes. Effective, no.
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
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I took the afternoon off to go and play with two mates. We all fly the same type of taildragger and had an ace couple of hours.
loops, rolls, spins, aren't many nosewheel tube and fabric aircraft that can do that and then land on 250 metres of grass.
Roll on Sunday - when I'm going out to play again
sNr
loops, rolls, spins, aren't many nosewheel tube and fabric aircraft that can do that and then land on 250 metres of grass.
Roll on Sunday - when I'm going out to play again
sNr
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Yup, it certainly does. You must remember that there is no wheel at the back though otherwise the expensive sound of aluminium meeting tarmac results!
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
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I, too have followed the Attitude for Speed??
thread which quickly became agony aunt corner for landings.
Regressive maybe, but IMHO I believe that if a large portion of ab-initio training was done on taildraggers w/out flaps - the general piloting skills of PPLs would improve drastically. I also believe that the circuit phase of ab-initio training should be done on runways of about 800 yards and that the aircraft in the pattern should be within gliding distance. This would help in reducing the landed long, through the fence accidents that are a common occurence in the AAIB reports.
Recently I have been #2 or #3 and have followed students around the circuit. Some of these "3 county" circuits qualify for x-country time, surely. I know that had I lost the donkey I would not have made the field.
So my answer to the previous posting is YES tailwheel time is very valuable and can assist in improving trike landings.
I learned on a C150 but and admit that I drove it around the sky on pre-ordained numbers for a long time. A few hours in a Cub actually taught me all about primary and secondary effects of controls.
I wish that I had learned on a taildragger, there was a Citabria at the school but it did not have the same allure as an all aluminium Cessna with bright paintwork - a veritable airworthy Vauxhall in stark contrast to the tatty old 7ECA which looked like it belonged in a bygone day.
I mainly fly an aerobatic biplane but have access to a large Cessna single. The Cessna is superb for load carrying from A-B; an analogy of trucking and motor-cycling/ driving through the sky or flying, springs to mind!
So if you haven't flown a tail dragger go beg a ride or do a transition course!
sNr
thread which quickly became agony aunt corner for landings.
Regressive maybe, but IMHO I believe that if a large portion of ab-initio training was done on taildraggers w/out flaps - the general piloting skills of PPLs would improve drastically. I also believe that the circuit phase of ab-initio training should be done on runways of about 800 yards and that the aircraft in the pattern should be within gliding distance. This would help in reducing the landed long, through the fence accidents that are a common occurence in the AAIB reports.
Recently I have been #2 or #3 and have followed students around the circuit. Some of these "3 county" circuits qualify for x-country time, surely. I know that had I lost the donkey I would not have made the field.
So my answer to the previous posting is YES tailwheel time is very valuable and can assist in improving trike landings.
I learned on a C150 but and admit that I drove it around the sky on pre-ordained numbers for a long time. A few hours in a Cub actually taught me all about primary and secondary effects of controls.
I wish that I had learned on a taildragger, there was a Citabria at the school but it did not have the same allure as an all aluminium Cessna with bright paintwork - a veritable airworthy Vauxhall in stark contrast to the tatty old 7ECA which looked like it belonged in a bygone day.
I mainly fly an aerobatic biplane but have access to a large Cessna single. The Cessna is superb for load carrying from A-B; an analogy of trucking and motor-cycling/ driving through the sky or flying, springs to mind!
So if you haven't flown a tail dragger go beg a ride or do a transition course!
sNr
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stiknruda, I think I was to blame for the attitude/speed thread going downhill (pun intended), that's why I started this one.
I agree with the circuits comment you made. If there are noise restrictions it is a bit understandable, but should we compromise safety by flying excessively large circuits?
Go to Sandown, their circuits would suit Heathrow. Is it because the current generation of instructors are practising for when they sit in the front of a jet? Somebody should tell them that hours building is best doen outside of the cicuit! My instructors used to go nana if I wasn't within reasonable gliding distance of the airfield. I must confess to cutting inside the small dots in the distance once or twice because at 65 knots these type of circuits are more like a x-country.In my defence, I will say that I was sitting on the grass outside the Cub by the time the first dot became a recognisable aeroplane!
Gripe over.
I used to drive by the numbers in my Aerobat. until more experienced bodies showed me what it would do (not that much really!). One thing I always try to do is land on a chosen spot and roll the shortest distance. I think it might come in handy if (when) it all goes quiet up front.
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
I agree with the circuits comment you made. If there are noise restrictions it is a bit understandable, but should we compromise safety by flying excessively large circuits?
Go to Sandown, their circuits would suit Heathrow. Is it because the current generation of instructors are practising for when they sit in the front of a jet? Somebody should tell them that hours building is best doen outside of the cicuit! My instructors used to go nana if I wasn't within reasonable gliding distance of the airfield. I must confess to cutting inside the small dots in the distance once or twice because at 65 knots these type of circuits are more like a x-country.In my defence, I will say that I was sitting on the grass outside the Cub by the time the first dot became a recognisable aeroplane!
Gripe over.
I used to drive by the numbers in my Aerobat. until more experienced bodies showed me what it would do (not that much really!). One thing I always try to do is land on a chosen spot and roll the shortest distance. I think it might come in handy if (when) it all goes quiet up front.
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
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So much for Taildragger versus Trike, but here goes anyway...
(Flame helmet on)
I agree with LowNSlow that the circuits flown in the UK are too large. However, I think I disagree as to the major cause. I honestly think that the primary reason for big circuits is noise abatement.
It seems that a common way to reduce noise is for the airfield to declare 1,000+ feet circuits. High circuits require more uphill and downhill work, especially in the lower-powered aircraft that we get to play with.
How do we keep our circuits tight then?
Obviously, the pilot has the easy answer of making a climbing turn onto cross-wind, but a second climbing turn onto down-wind? Next, we also have more downhill. At 1,000 feet with little or no wind, I've often found myself starting the descent well before the turn onto base.
Great stuff, in nil wind, attempting to keep things tight, I end up finishing my climb just in time to call 'downwind', do my checks, and then immediately start my descent. Actually, I don't do any of the above. I simply increase the size of my circuit... Rightly or wrongly, I think most of us do the same.
(I think I'll leave my Flame Helmet on).
Change of subject: As regards a C152 Aerobat being 'boring', were you flying it the right (wrong) way up? They may not be the most aerobatic of aircraft, but a stall-turn or three clears the head beautifully.
(Flame helmet on)
I agree with LowNSlow that the circuits flown in the UK are too large. However, I think I disagree as to the major cause. I honestly think that the primary reason for big circuits is noise abatement.
It seems that a common way to reduce noise is for the airfield to declare 1,000+ feet circuits. High circuits require more uphill and downhill work, especially in the lower-powered aircraft that we get to play with.
How do we keep our circuits tight then?
Obviously, the pilot has the easy answer of making a climbing turn onto cross-wind, but a second climbing turn onto down-wind? Next, we also have more downhill. At 1,000 feet with little or no wind, I've often found myself starting the descent well before the turn onto base.
Great stuff, in nil wind, attempting to keep things tight, I end up finishing my climb just in time to call 'downwind', do my checks, and then immediately start my descent. Actually, I don't do any of the above. I simply increase the size of my circuit... Rightly or wrongly, I think most of us do the same.
(I think I'll leave my Flame Helmet on).
Change of subject: As regards a C152 Aerobat being 'boring', were you flying it the right (wrong) way up? They may not be the most aerobatic of aircraft, but a stall-turn or three clears the head beautifully.
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The circuit size, I feel, is more a function of allowing oneself (one's student?) sufficent time to get all those horrible radio calls, checks and the like out of the way so that you can concentrate on turning base and establishing a nice long final for a greaser landing - normally touching down about half way down the 1800 metre runway.
It is just sloppiness. It also decreases the number of circuits or landings (dependant upon whose view point!) per hour.
There are fields with stringent noise abatement procedures, I admit but most large circuits are flown because the guy/gal has forgotten the reason for keeping close to the runway.
sNr
It is just sloppiness. It also decreases the number of circuits or landings (dependant upon whose view point!) per hour.
There are fields with stringent noise abatement procedures, I admit but most large circuits are flown because the guy/gal has forgotten the reason for keeping close to the runway.
sNr
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Not so sure about this thread "going downhill"... look at the positive side... we have all gone away and actually thought about what we are doing... whether to use aileron or rudder and why.
Nobody actually abused each other... surely this is what debating is all about.
What really concerns me is the effect we might have on the student members of the group... I relly don't want to inject any more confusion into a high learning curve.
Let's just say that there is more than one way to skin a cat!
My advice is to find an instructor you are comfortable with and stick with him/her and if the school cannot guarantee this instructor in the early stages then find another school.
Could you imagine BEagle and me taking the same student out in the early stages?
On the plus side BEagle and me will probably enjoy a pint together sometime, how about it?
On the new topic...
Yes, circuits are getting ridiculously wide.
I have followed quite a few fellows in the last few weeks and even my non flying passengers have remarked on the leading aircraft.
Things are geting too regulated... I have heard of schools not letting pilots solo without passing their law exam... perhaps that is in readiness to do their X country circuit!
I agree totally that the early solos should be kept tight on medium/short runways to encourage good aircraft handling.
Once the guy has soloed then we can add on all the trinkets.
Still enjoying the forum!
Nobody actually abused each other... surely this is what debating is all about.
What really concerns me is the effect we might have on the student members of the group... I relly don't want to inject any more confusion into a high learning curve.
Let's just say that there is more than one way to skin a cat!
My advice is to find an instructor you are comfortable with and stick with him/her and if the school cannot guarantee this instructor in the early stages then find another school.
Could you imagine BEagle and me taking the same student out in the early stages?
On the plus side BEagle and me will probably enjoy a pint together sometime, how about it?
On the new topic...
Yes, circuits are getting ridiculously wide.
I have followed quite a few fellows in the last few weeks and even my non flying passengers have remarked on the leading aircraft.
Things are geting too regulated... I have heard of schools not letting pilots solo without passing their law exam... perhaps that is in readiness to do their X country circuit!
I agree totally that the early solos should be kept tight on medium/short runways to encourage good aircraft handling.
Once the guy has soloed then we can add on all the trinkets.
Still enjoying the forum!
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Cicuit size. Take one C152 (fully loaded), take off, climb to 500 ft, turn left, climb to 1000 ft, level off, turn left. Now take one Katana and do the same - result, a bigger circuit because they climb like sloths. Now (the crunch) do the same thing in the Katana with a low time student, teaching them all the techniques and checks etc - result, a minor cross-country. That's the way it is. I agree that smaller circuits are more desirable but we all have to learn sometime. Oh, and then to put the icing on the cake try putting 4 such aircraft/student combinations in the same circuit. Oh, what fun we had.
PS Give me a taildragger any day, a Zlin 526F if you have one. Or a Spit XIV come to think about it.
PS Give me a taildragger any day, a Zlin 526F if you have one. Or a Spit XIV come to think about it.
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The UK Katana distributor is based near me at Gamston... thankfully training circuits aren't allowed by the Parish Council.
One came directly over my garden today and I was amazed how noisy he was. About 1000ft or so and I could still hear his drone as he headed towards the horizon.
Don't want to p on your bonfire but the last two sight seeing circuiters I have followed around have been Cessnas.
One came directly over my garden today and I was amazed how noisy he was. About 1000ft or so and I could still hear his drone as he headed towards the horizon.
Don't want to p on your bonfire but the last two sight seeing circuiters I have followed around have been Cessnas.