P1 or P1/s for check flights
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well for example, an IMC test is not a test or retest for an aircraft rating, it's a personal rating.
Back to the question I was trying to raise on non-instructor checkouts and this p1/s logging. (not sure anyone has really clearly put a hand up on this one yet):
If one gets liberal and interprets Clause J as being the basis for allowing p1 and p1/s logging between 2 pilots during a checkout where no instructor is involved, then Clause J is also quite specific that if the test is failed, the failing PPL then must log as Pu/t. So would the 'liberal interpreters' want pu/t to be logged on a failed checkout flight with a non-instructor checker? Is this non-instructor checker now giving training? (despite not being allowed to do so?)
I think that gives the main clue that Clause J (and therefore p1/s) is nothing to do with rental or syndicate checkouts, as these flights could be carried out by PPL checkers.
My conclusion (make your own minds up):
Rental Checkout with instructor: If you both want the hours, cook up some reason (there will be one somehow if you try hard enough) to log it p1 and pu/t.
Rental or Syndicate checkout without instructor: one pilot logs p1, the other logs nothing. I don't care which.
Back to the question I was trying to raise on non-instructor checkouts and this p1/s logging. (not sure anyone has really clearly put a hand up on this one yet):
If one gets liberal and interprets Clause J as being the basis for allowing p1 and p1/s logging between 2 pilots during a checkout where no instructor is involved, then Clause J is also quite specific that if the test is failed, the failing PPL then must log as Pu/t. So would the 'liberal interpreters' want pu/t to be logged on a failed checkout flight with a non-instructor checker? Is this non-instructor checker now giving training? (despite not being allowed to do so?)
I think that gives the main clue that Clause J (and therefore p1/s) is nothing to do with rental or syndicate checkouts, as these flights could be carried out by PPL checkers.
My conclusion (make your own minds up):
Rental Checkout with instructor: If you both want the hours, cook up some reason (there will be one somehow if you try hard enough) to log it p1 and pu/t.
Rental or Syndicate checkout without instructor: one pilot logs p1, the other logs nothing. I don't care which.
TFI,
The answer makes itself obvious if you ask "who will own any accident that occurs?".
There can only be one Commander, this must be agreed at the start of a flight and recorded in the techlog. Logically you can't start a flight with one person as the Commander and change this at the end if the check was successful.
Therefore the Commander logs P1 and the other bod logs:
- nothing (Commander not an instructor)
- pu/t (Commander is an instructor and training given)
- p1 or p1/s (Commander is an instructor and interprets rules logically).
...I think I'm agreeing with you.
The answer makes itself obvious if you ask "who will own any accident that occurs?".
There can only be one Commander, this must be agreed at the start of a flight and recorded in the techlog. Logically you can't start a flight with one person as the Commander and change this at the end if the check was successful.
Therefore the Commander logs P1 and the other bod logs:
- nothing (Commander not an instructor)
- pu/t (Commander is an instructor and training given)
- p1 or p1/s (Commander is an instructor and interprets rules logically).
...I think I'm agreeing with you.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of water is being muddied here because the military term P1 and the civilian term PIC are being interchanged.
UK military log books have a First Pilot (P1) column and a Captain column. So, on a big grey jet, the guy in the LH seat logs P1 but the captain could be in the RH seat (also logging P1 but logging captain as well) or (shock, horror) could be a navigator sitting down the back. The military also allows 2 pilots flying a trainer/2-sticker to both log P1 if suitably qualified but only one logs Captain.
A civilian log book has one, Pilot in Command (PIC), column. Thus it is equivalent to the military Captain column.
In the civilian single-pilot world the only guy who can log PIC is the pilot in command - the captain. Anyone in the other seat of a single-pilot aircraft is either receiving instruction from the captain (who therefore must be an FI, IRI, TRI or CRI) and so logs PU/T, or is just a passenger and can't log anything. The only 2 exceptions are: a pilot undergoing a successful JAA Skill Test or Proficiency Check and flying with an examiner (ie FE/PPL, FE/CPL, CRE etc) and, for guys on integrated CPL or ATPL courses only, a student flying with an instructor as IF safety pilot (this is known as SPIC - student pilot in command).
Using a civilian logbook, club checks with an instructor are PIC for the FI and PU/T for the checkee. Club checks with anyone else are PIC for one of the pilots and nothing for the other.
Solution: scrounge a military logbook!
UK military log books have a First Pilot (P1) column and a Captain column. So, on a big grey jet, the guy in the LH seat logs P1 but the captain could be in the RH seat (also logging P1 but logging captain as well) or (shock, horror) could be a navigator sitting down the back. The military also allows 2 pilots flying a trainer/2-sticker to both log P1 if suitably qualified but only one logs Captain.
A civilian log book has one, Pilot in Command (PIC), column. Thus it is equivalent to the military Captain column.
In the civilian single-pilot world the only guy who can log PIC is the pilot in command - the captain. Anyone in the other seat of a single-pilot aircraft is either receiving instruction from the captain (who therefore must be an FI, IRI, TRI or CRI) and so logs PU/T, or is just a passenger and can't log anything. The only 2 exceptions are: a pilot undergoing a successful JAA Skill Test or Proficiency Check and flying with an examiner (ie FE/PPL, FE/CPL, CRE etc) and, for guys on integrated CPL or ATPL courses only, a student flying with an instructor as IF safety pilot (this is known as SPIC - student pilot in command).
Using a civilian logbook, club checks with an instructor are PIC for the FI and PU/T for the checkee. Club checks with anyone else are PIC for one of the pilots and nothing for the other.
Solution: scrounge a military logbook!
